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CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

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Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#291
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All three of those elements are not usually vaporized and then inhaled in large quantities. Extrapolation from their effects when ingested is unlikely to apply in these cases. Your conclusion does not follow from the evidence.

This is the point everyone seems to be missing. Everyone is defending the ingredients as being safe but it's like defending water as being safe in when you have a patient who has steam related third degree burns.

> it's like defending water as being safe in when you have a patient who has steam related third degree burns

Or even closer, after they just inhaled a bunch of it and are now drowning.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18 and 19 year olds are in commas, dead right now, or will be soon. This is killing people far faster than cigarettes. I'm of the opinion the small fraction of people claiming they only smoked nicotine are probably lying for reasons mentioned before. They are young kids who don't want to disappoint their families with the fact that they are now dying at a very young age from what used to be a mostly harmless activity…

>18 and 19 year olds are in commas Oh no, not commas! What other punctuation related illnesses hover over our head, waiting to descend when the clouds of vape smoke clear?

Missed periods?

Or, even worse, colon cancer. (A terrible affliction that can leave one with a semi-colon.)

(I'll get downvoted... like you... we will go down together.)

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#293

Vaping is great! Take someone who smokes two packs a day, give him a niccotine vape, and he gets all the 'high' he needs to fuel his addiciton, with (by some sources) only 10% of the "bad things" going in his lungs (compared to cigarettes). Less coughing, easier to reduce the dosage (just buy a liquid with less nicotine - you still keep your rutine and cigarette breaks, but slowly lower your addiction level). ...but.…

I think if it really was purely a device for cessation then this could be solved by putting it behind the counter and requiring a prescription. I remember before weed was legal in California there would be a doc office next to a pot shop and you would get your prescription and then walk in. I imagine there would be a market for people who wanted to quit to go to a 5 min doc meeting, they'd verify you're a smoker and…

Why does everyone want to police what I put in my body? I personally think vaping is beyond lame, but I support any adults right to injest what they wish. The prohibition of thc is the reason for the bad carts in the first place. Your attitude created this.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#294
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All three of those elements are not usually vaporized and then inhaled in large quantities. Extrapolation from their effects when ingested is unlikely to apply in these cases. Your conclusion does not follow from the evidence.

propelene glycol is and has been used as an air santizer for a very long time. https://archive.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/web/pdf/pr...

Something just wasn't sitting with me about the document you shared [0] and toxicity categories [1], so I asked my partner, who is an environmental engineer, to explain it to me.

The EPA's toxicity categories [2] are determined by the amount of a substance that will kill you. So if it only takes 50mg/kg or less to kill you it's highly toxic, where as if it takes greater than 5000mg/kg to kill you it's considered non-toxic.

As my partner was explaining to me how to interpret the page, she furrowed her brow because she couldn't figure out how Dipropylene Glycol was Cat 4 and not Cat 3. Per the EPA guidelines the reported lethal levels for Dermal and Inhalation should make it Cat 3.

Further, the document says "Upon reviewing the available toxicity information, the Agency has concluded that there are no endpoints of concern for oral, dermal, or inhalation exposure to propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol." But if you look at the data provided, there is no inhalation exposure data for Propylene Glycol.

So why are we assuming PG is safe to inhale? And why is DG considered Cat 4 and not Cat 3? It's not entirely clear but my partner suspected lobbying which she said is quite common by industry groups like the American Chemistry Council.

I looked around and couldn't find anything specifically related to PG but the American Chemistry Council's Ethylene Glycol Ethers Panel petitions the EPA quite a bit to reclassify and remove reporting requirements. An example is their petition to remove reporting requirements for ethylene glycol monobutyl ether [3] which has similar toxicity categories to PG and DG. When you look at their section on Acute Toxicity, the rationale is not that it's safe but rather that it's unlikely to kill anyone the way it's used and stored in industry. So a lot of the justification that things are safe is based on how it's used. Vaping is a relatively new usage for PG.

When you look at the EPA's executive summary of propylene glycol [4] you can see that there's very little data around inhalation. The one thing I did find was a link to a Military Exposure Guidelines document [5] which indicates that Propylene Glycol exposure at 500 mg/kg (0.5 mg/l) was critically dangerous and resulted in convulsions in Monkeys. Wikipedia's article on propylene glycol [6] however references a study where subjects were exposed to 871 mg/m3 (0.8 mg/l) and only reported mild respiratory irritation. Keep in mind that your original document stated 2.4 m/l would kill you. So I'm inclined to believe that MEGs are closer to the truth than a Wikipedia study locked behind a pay wall.

The more I look into this, the more I see that there's very little research about the long term effects of exposure AND more importantly that much of the categorization, which predates vaping, is based on how it was being used at the time but does not take into account modern use cases.

My conclusion is that the CDC is right and people need to stop breathing this shit until we better understand it.

[0] https://archive.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/web/pdf/pr...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicity_category_rating

[2] https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2005-title40-vol23/p...

[3] https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/sites/production/files...

[4] https://comptox.epa.gov/dashboard/dsstoxdb/results?search=pr...

[5] https://phc.amedd.army.mil/PHC%20Resource%20Library/TG230-De...

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do that with cigarettes but kids still get them (atleast in my country). Banning a device is useless, beceause the same vaporizer could be used to other stuff, and it'd be still sold online (from places like china), and customs don't really check every package for what's inside (especially since it usually says "electronic gadget" on the CN22 form). Banning liquids would be easier, but in some places (eg, here),…

Sure, people will always get around things like that if they want to badly enough (see any illegal drug) but if the rate of use is dramatically lowered then it changes the dynamic of the current usage where public health folks are worried many new smokers will enter the market because of the availability. I agree it's super hard, even with pot (again in CA) when it was illegal it was a bit of a joke to me (and a surp…

Regarding THC being illegal... Around 2012 I was at a concert in LA at the Palladium (indoor venue-- arguably most famous as the final scene of the blues brothers movie). As the night progressed, the venue was filled with a fog of pot smoke, and I was struck by the a couple of things.

One, the contrast between Orange County where one would not dare to dream to smoke in public. My (minor) career as a weed smoker was entirely indoors-- late nights and Boards of Canada albums, and whispers of, "Do you know anyone?"

Two, as a cigar enthusiast, how utterly unwelcome I would have been smoking tobacco.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#297
post #71

I strongly suspect that it is somewhat harmful and dangerous but I am convinced that most vape products are much less harmful than cigarettes. I mean they are talking about 5 deaths. Cigarettes kill 500,000 per year. Some people are literally going to see a headline like this and use it as a reason to go back to cigarettes. I think they should put declarations like this in context. They have no reason to believe that…

Cigarettes kill a lot of people per year, but they take decades to do it. Not many lifelong smokers in their 20s, 30s, or even 40s are dying from cigarettes.

With that said. Vaping has been around for about ten years and this appears to be the first thing we've seen like this. Some of the victims are 18 or 19. I've been vaping on and off for 6 years. I only feel better when I vape vs smoking. Of course, that is purely based on my feel for cardio, lung capacity, and how my chest feels. Who knows under the hood at a cellular or other level. I've never been a big cloud guy, but I know big cloud people who have vaped twice as much as I have and they are still alive. The whole situation is very confusing. I'm hoping science prevails here.

If the FDA wants to outlaw vaping, so be it, but please be even-handed and outlaw plant-based nicotine products as well.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tens of millions of people vaping on an hourly basis for years amounting to ~500 cases Vaping is new. Maybe these are the early incidents of a yet-to-be-discovered chronic condition that takes a decade plus of vaping to develop. Hey, millions of high schoolers smoke cigarettes and none of them have lung cancer! (yet)

18 and 19 year olds are in commas, dead right now, or will be soon. This is killing people far faster than cigarettes. I'm of the opinion the small fraction of people claiming they only smoked nicotine are probably lying for reasons mentioned before. They are young kids who don't want to disappoint their families with the fact that they are now dying at a very young age from what used to be a mostly harmless activity…

> 18 and 19 year olds are in commas, dead right now, or will be soon. This is killing people far faster than cigarettes.

According to the article, 5 people have died due to this vaping related illness. By contrast, cigarette smoking kills 480,000 people a year in the US: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/heal...

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#299
post #295
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaping is not more deadly than smoking cigarettes.

We'll see.

Are you willing to bet money on that? I'm willing to bet any amount up to 1 BTC (≈10,000 USD) that in the next decade, there will not be a year in which the CDC attributes more deaths to vaping than smoking. I'm also willing to bet on similar statements that would be true if vaping is more harmful than smoking.

If you want, we can find a neutral arbiter to determine the outcome of our predictions, though they may want a percentage of the stakes.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems unlikely 1) everyone would lie From the article "One trend worth noting, however, is that very few of the cases involve only nicotine products; most of the afflicted users reported using THC exclusively or as well as nicotine." I struggle to see why GP is completely ignoring this and is insinuating that normal nicotine vaping is dangerous. It is fabulously unlikely we have only just "discovered" this. Inst…

I just see a general "dont vape" trend and that is good. Until we know more, lay off.

Vaping often replaces smoking. Even with this recent health crisis accounted for vaping is far less risky and damaging to health than smoking.
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