94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet • Hacker News Board

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#91

Post by bureaucrat » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

parliament32 wrote: post #48

bureaucrat wrote: post #32

Watching things like this, I think bitcoin could eventually replace the government-backed currency. Everyone can watch them move. If you spend 1$ from that wallet to buy even a mars bar, your identity will be known to others. How CLEAN and clear is that?

In a way. Washing it is pretty easy though. Send $50 into whatever exchange-du-jour is popular, then withdraw it back out into a clean wallet. Now you can buy all the Mars bars you want.

Washing that little amount is more easy with just cash.

You leave all your trace. Unlike cash laundering. That’s what matters.

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#92

Post by magashna » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #34

ulzeraj wrote: post #9

Probably related to Bakkt. The interesting thing here is how inexpensive was the transaction fee. How does banks transfer this kind of sum and how much would it cost?

It would be free with a bank. If you have that much money with the bank, they will bend over backwards for you. For example with E*Trade I think any wire is free if you have 1 million with them.

Could you actually transfer 1B in one transaction?

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#93

Post by isostatic » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #83

pavlov wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International wire transfers between USD accounts usually cost about $25 regardless of the amount. There's a lot of dollars moving around in the global financial system quickly and affordably, Bitcoin advocates just don't seem to know about it for some reason.

International wires are a bad example because they charge a huge FOREX spread. For a high-ticket transfer, you'd need to use a brokerage for the exchange first, which is also very cheap, but a bit more than $25 ($20 per million at InteractiveBrokers). Then a very cheap domestic wire for the last mile. Or, for small-ticket transfer TransferWise is around 0.85% for the whole exchange.

No they don't, if I shift $500m from a US bank (in USD) to a swiss bank (in USD) it attracts no FOREX and barely any cost.

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#94

Post by Ambele » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

ColanR wrote: post #68

shorts_theory wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the part which confuses me about Bitcoin the most. It's meant to be anonymous, yet with some diligent data mining, it can become pretty clear who's who from their spending patterns by observing the ledger. How is that remotely anonymous?

> It's meant to be anonymous Unfortunately, Bitcoin (BTC) is not anonymous, as you pointed out. It never was; and with tax laws requiring copious transaction information, it is particularly easily traceable. That's the idea behind Monero & Co., which tries to mix things up a bit (literally). The anonymity is still not perfect, especially against state-level actors.

Bitcoin can be anonymous though in certain use-cases. You can create a new bitcoin public/private key pair on a computer that has never (and will never) touched the internet. Once you send the coins from an address to this new address, the network will now know the IP address of the sender, but it won't know anything about the unknown recipient.

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#95

Post by cwkoss » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

shorts_theory wrote: post #47

BluSyn wrote: post #12

I can count maybe 5 people in the crypto space that would have that much BTC, but none of them would be dumb enough to put it all in one wallet. Most likely some large institutional investor decided to re-key their cold storage wallet.

This is the part which confuses me about Bitcoin the most. It's meant to be anonymous, yet with some diligent data mining, it can become pretty clear who's who from their spending patterns by observing the ledger. How is that remotely anonymous?

Bitcoin enables privacy when used properly, but privacy is not an inherent feature.

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#96

Post by lawn » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

shorts_theory wrote: post #47

BluSyn wrote: post #12

I can count maybe 5 people in the crypto space that would have that much BTC, but none of them would be dumb enough to put it all in one wallet. Most likely some large institutional investor decided to re-key their cold storage wallet.

This is the part which confuses me about Bitcoin the most. It's meant to be anonymous, yet with some diligent data mining, it can become pretty clear who's who from their spending patterns by observing the ledger. How is that remotely anonymous?

I think Satoshi wanted to make Bitcoin anonymous, but didn't know how to (and Bitcoin was still a pretty big achievement).

Today Monero or maybe ZCash is leading the privacy department and they do offer the anonymity you're after (with some weaknesses of course).

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#97

Post by djsumdog » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

Daniel_sk wrote: post #55

jiveturkey wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Help me understand, was 1 billion dollars actually transferred? Wouldn't a normal bank wire of the same amount cost less than that, say $25?

I am not sure how bank handle such large transactions (100 milion+), but transferring millions is very cheap or for free - at least with standard IBAN within EU.

A large corp-to-corp (or even person-to-corp) transfer does have a lot of money involved (accounts to figure out taxes, lawyers if it's for buying or selling major assets, possibly international tax experts, maybe even an escrow service if it's between say a EU company and a Chinese company where they might not trust the other nations court systems).

And then the bank might charge a fee too, although I suspect with accounts that large, banks would do what they could to minimize fees since that much capital helps them with loads/interest.

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#98

Post by bureaucrat » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #86

bureaucrat wrote: post #32

Watching things like this, I think bitcoin could eventually replace the government-backed currency. Everyone can watch them move. If you spend 1$ from that wallet to buy even a mars bar, your identity will be known to others. How CLEAN and clear is that?

Only if people own their wallets and transactions happen on-chain. We're far from that point, both for technical and social reasons. I like having my money in a bank and using my Visa card because I feel safe doing it. If I lose my card or get a bogus transaction? Just use your insurance. Beyond that, if you want additional services not provided by a blockchain such as getting a loan, I'm sure banks will ask you to p…

Theoretically crypto will never replace government backed currency if the world economy and politics is stable.

Look at Turkey. Venezuela. Argentina. China. North Korea. People are already not trusting government backed currency. I don’t mean to over generalize. I just want to say it’s not just a dream. It’s possible.

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#99

Post by isostatic » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

compiler-guy wrote: post #81

As far as the fees being so cheap, and every one else guessing about how expensive it would be to do it in a normal banking situation, F. Scott Fitzgerald is relevant: "Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me. They possess and enjoy early, and it does something to them, makes them soft where we are hard, and cynical where we are trustful, in a way that, unless you were born rich, it is…

> how expensive it would be to do it in a normal banking situation

No idea about the billionaires, but I can shift £5k from a current account to another current account with another bank for the princely sum of £0.00

Re: 94k Bitcoin (1B USD) transferred from unknown wallet to unknown wallet

#100

Post by bureaucrat » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

riantogo wrote: post #72

bureaucrat wrote: post #32

Watching things like this, I think bitcoin could eventually replace the government-backed currency. Everyone can watch them move. If you spend 1$ from that wallet to buy even a mars bar, your identity will be known to others. How CLEAN and clear is that?

A billion was moved and we don’t know the identity of the person. Not sure what you are describing.

That doesn’t matter. The billion is worthless if you can’t spend it. Spend 1$ from that wallet and your identity will be known.