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Sunsetting Python 2

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Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#461

Post by baq »

skywhopper wrote: post #401
ken wrote: post #240

Python 2 to 3 (at least by 3.3 or so) was one of the easiest transitions I've ever done. There's a library ("six") to help, and in almost all cases you can write 2-and-3 compatible code, which means you can go piece-by-piece. (Unless your manager makes drive-by commits of py2-only code, months after you all agreed that all new code should be py3-compatible, and then leaves town for a multi-week vacation...) Dependenc…

As one of the complainers, my time wasn't ever going to go into fixing third party libraries. Instead, I spent my time moving to languages that had more respect for their invested users. Also, your screwdriver analogy makes no sense. The choice here is not about "your favorite tool brand". Mixing and matching tool brands is straightforward. The more appropriate analogy with screwdriver heads would be to imagine that…

the zero benefit is where you show that you didn't even try to think about it. missed opportunity to stay silent.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#462

Post by hiccuphippo »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #95
jedberg wrote: post #62

In 2015, there was no way I could have moved to Python 3. There were too many libraries I depended on that hadn't ported yet. In 2019, I feel pretty confident about using Python 3, having used it exclusively for about 18 months now. For my personal use case at least, this timeline worked out well for me. Hopefully it works out for most everyone. I can't imagine they made this decision without at least some data backi…

Based on your timeline, a four year gap from "not yet ready to migrate" to "we won't fix security vulnerabilities" is very short. Python is an open source project I've used and contributed nothing to, so I don't have the right to be a back seat driver. Were it a commercial project and I was a customer, I would be quite upset.

I'm pretty sure there will be more than one commercial offer for Python2 support in the future.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#463

Post by NoodleIncident »

normalhuman wrote: post #361
gjm11 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, "for me" and "for my use case" mean subtly but genuinely different things. "For me" highlights the fact that my preferences, character, skills, etc., are different from other people's. Something might work well for me but badly for someone else because I happen to be good at working around its quirks, or bad at noticing its faults, or just not interested in the things it doesn't do. "For my use case" highlight…

Corparate-speak that makes its way into common language is frequently justified post-hoc by subtle differences in meaning like the ones you allude to. The problem is that these differences are personal and subjective. Ask someone else, they might have a different answer. I have had the same discussion multiple times over the equally meaningless and inelegant "going forward". "Use case" comes from 90s software enginee…

> Corparate-speak that makes its way into common language is frequently justified post-hoc by subtle differences in meaning like the ones you allude to.

You seem to have reversed cause and effect here. New words/phrases/jargon comes into common usage when it is useful for communicating something. The difference might be subtle, but people wouldn't use the word if they didn't think that it was an important distinction to make.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#464

Post by logifail »

weberc2 wrote: post #354
mikepurvis wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment I was specifically replying to asserted that "you could easily write Python 3 compatible code", and could have been doing so 10 years ago. This is simply untrue— there are a dozen small stumbling blocks that mean that writing bilingual code has a real cost. And it's not as easy as just having the right CI setup, especially if it's ten years ago and most of your dependencies haven't migrated.

Ah, I see the confusion. In this case, "easily" is relative. The assertion "you could easily write Python 3 compatible code" was in response to the (implied?) assertion "you can't do anything to migrate unless your dependencies are migrated". Perhaps "simply" would have been a better word choice than "easily". To your point, writing 2-3 compatible code has a real cost, but to the GP's point, it's the obvious solution…

> To your point, writing 2-3 compatible code has a real cost, but to the GP's point, it's the obvious solution to the "can't do anything until deps are migrated" problem

Q: Ten years ago how would you have explained to your manager that you needed your team to start writing 2-3 compatible code, which obviously takes considerably more time and effort than sticking with 2 compatible code?

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#466

Post by partialrecall »

fortydegrees wrote: post #306
normalhuman wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For my personal use case at least, this timeline worked out well for me. Hint for Hacker News commenters: 99% of the time, if your phrase includes the term "use case", you can safely just delete it and lose no meaning. It's just a way to say "for me" or "for them" that sounds more technical but really isn't. In this case, you could say "This timeline worked out well for me".

Same with 'utilize' -> 'use'

It's not restricted to tech. Cops do it too:

"This particular individual" -> "this person"

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#467

Post by normalhuman »

bradenb wrote: post #449
normalhuman wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HN has a history of comments like this that criticize other comments and add nothing to the discussion I disagree. HN is a place that seems to pride itself on the quality of its discussions, and on a higher intellectual caliber when compared to other Internet discussion venues. Surely a good command of language is part of that?

Yes, it does pride itself on the quality of discussions. It also has done that just fine using the voting and flagging mechanisms. When I see comments criticizing others' comments I am always reminded of reddit. I think this is exactly what you're hoping to avoid when you come to HN. Beyond that, who are we to judge what constitutes "good command of language?" Which language are we even talking about here? I don't th…

> When I see comments criticizing others' comments I am always reminded of reddit. I think this is exactly what you're hoping to avoid when you come to HN.

> I don't think HN is going to become a better place by becoming more elitist.

err...

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#468

Post by shscs911 »

partialrecall wrote: post #455
bscphil wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calibre is another well known case, and they don't plan to migrate. Actually, I can't wait to remove it from my hard drive on Jan 1, since it's one of the most poorly designed apps I've ever used. It's really not surprising at all that they're not able to migrate it, assuming the quality of the app is indicative of the quality of the code. I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true of a lot of applications that are…

The only good part of calibre is the `ebook-convert` commandline tool that has a stupid-simple interface (polar opposite of the gui) and handles all kinds of formats that pandoc doesn't. The gui, Calibre proper, is a total nightmare. Functional, but my god is it esoteric and ugly. I've heard people actually use that gui as their primary ebook reading software and I just can't fathom how they find that tolerable. http…

I dislike Calibre main GUI as well. It looks a bit dated and all, but really convenient for downloading books from Userfiction forums like Spacebattles via the Fanficfare plugin. Also good for simple editing of ebook metadata. Built-in ebook-viewer is highly configurable with custom keybindings and themable with custom CSS.This is my setup

https://imgur.com/a/nlAAlZn

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#469

Post by paulddraper »

gcthomas wrote: post #444
drej wrote: post #159

What surprises me about this is that the documentation for Python 2 does not explicitly say that the language version is about to be unsupported, see e.g. https://docs.python.org/2/library/zipfile.html Contrast this with the Postgres website, which tells me I'm browsing old docs (because Google still offers old links), see e.g. https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.2/tutorial-window.html Are there plans to add a banner t…

Python 2.7 isn't yet unsupported, so it doesn't compare to the deprecated Postgres version you linked to. Click through to the oldest _supported_ Postgres version, and it isn't clear when _it_ will lose support - no banners at all - , just like the currently supported Py 2.7.

That's true.

And because of changes in PostgreSQL versioning, people don't release that the oldest support version (9.3) is rather old.

PostgreSQL 9.6 was released in 2016, 10 in 2017, and 11 in 2018.

But PostgreSQL 9.3 was released way back in 2013...not quite as old as Python 2.7 but close.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#470

Post by notthemessiah »

partialrecall wrote: post #455
bscphil wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calibre is another well known case, and they don't plan to migrate. Actually, I can't wait to remove it from my hard drive on Jan 1, since it's one of the most poorly designed apps I've ever used. It's really not surprising at all that they're not able to migrate it, assuming the quality of the app is indicative of the quality of the code. I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true of a lot of applications that are…

The only good part of calibre is the `ebook-convert` commandline tool that has a stupid-simple interface (polar opposite of the gui) and handles all kinds of formats that pandoc doesn't. The gui, Calibre proper, is a total nightmare. Functional, but my god is it esoteric and ugly. I've heard people actually use that gui as their primary ebook reading software and I just can't fathom how they find that tolerable. http…

I use Calibre as my primary e-book reader. I don't see many alternatives on Linux.
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