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Sunsetting Python 2

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Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#421

Post by carapace »

Going forward, I'll be maintaining Python 2.7 for the indefinite future. This will be under project name "Bladders". (Python is named after Monty Python's Flying Circus. There is another fantastic British comedy called Black Adder, and the main character is sometimes called "Bladders" as a contraction of Black Adder.) Unlike Tauthon, I won't change the language at all, only maintenance. I'm also going to make a curated software repository of Python 2 code, starting with the standard lib and some common third-party packages (like Snakefood.) And I'm going to pay technical writers to clean up the documentation.

I don't give a fig about controversy. I just want to keep using Python 2.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#422

Post by vertex-four »

myself248 wrote: post #347
ttraub wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me three! It happens all too often that an example Python script fails in one, then succeeds in the other. I'm also a casual Python user, trying to ramp up because of its obvious popularity and utility. I wish that the basic syntactical changes could have been designed to be more backward-compatible. But, eventually I suppose, python2 will just be a footnote in history.

Same situation here. Trying to jump on this bandwagon and finding it's a slithering target. I just wish they'd named it something different. If there's neither forward nor backward compatibility, I'd argue they're not the same language and should not have the same name.

Most languages have had breaking changes at some point in their history. Even the language known as "Perl 5" had them in almost every version.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#423

Post by [deleted] »

ken wrote: post #240

Python 2 to 3 (at least by 3.3 or so) was one of the easiest transitions I've ever done. There's a library ("six") to help, and in almost all cases you can write 2-and-3 compatible code, which means you can go piece-by-piece. (Unless your manager makes drive-by commits of py2-only code, months after you all agreed that all new code should be py3-compatible, and then leaves town for a multi-week vacation...) Dependenc…

[deleted]

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#424

Post by partialrecall »

CJefferson wrote: post #262
wongarsu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like Q) I like Python 2. Can I take over Python 2 maintenence? A) Sure. Just don't pretend to be us; call your fork something other than Python 2

If I can't make the executable, by default on installing, be 'python2', I'm adding quite a lot of pain to users (in particular, all those users with #!/usr/bin/env python2 in scripts).

Tell your stick-in-the-mud customers to just symlink it. I sincerely doubt you will be sued for telling your customers to symlink `dead-snake` to `python` if they're really stubborn about not changing their code one whit.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#425

Post by ZWoz »

CJefferson wrote: post #211
XCabbage wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've asserted this twice on this post, both times without any evidence. I Googled, couldn't find the threat you're basing the claim on, but DID find that the PSF Trademark Usage Policy ( https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/ ) explicitly allows most sorts of freely distributed Python-related products to use the name without permission: > Use of the word "Python" in the names of freely distributed products like Iro…

Sorry, I shouldn't assume people know the same things I know. I know this has come up at least three times I've seen, but I'm having trouble finding them all. Here's one: https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon/issues/47 In this case there was plans to call something py28, to which Guido replied "OK, bring in the lawyers".

CJefferson probably refers that GvR comment (Though I don't see that strong language here):

""" Since I was asked: The project's name (and its binary name) need to change. They are misleading. The rest looks acceptable according to Python's license. This is not an endorsement (far from it). """

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#426

Post by mixmastamyk »

toyg wrote: post #227
sjwright wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that view include PyPy? I'm not deep into Python (aside from the Monty kind) but it seems to be maintained and makes performance claims.

PyPy is a python-focused project that builds a python-focused runtime. My comment was more about projects trying to retrofit Python on top of runtimes that were built for very different languages, typically because of some constraint that has now disappeared.

The GIL constraint has not.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#428

Post by geerlingguy »

geekles wrote: post #389
sdoering wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we switched from phillips to torx, and your favorite tool brand didn't make torx drivers yet, you've got to either convince them to start, or switch brands. This is the best analogy I have yet read. Thanks - you nailed an argument I have had at multiple gigs/clients way to often. > Professionals don't get to use this as an excuse to badmouth torx, and stick with phillips. D'accord. Exactly. I had very fruitful d…

You've never encountered badmouthing from a pro builder about other tool brands? How many did you talk to? Builders make the Ford v Chevy debates look minimal in comparison.

I think he means more 'craftsman' vs. 'builder' in mentioning professionals.

I don't think there's a time I can remember when Norm Abram (probably now one of the greatest or at least most prominent carpenters of a generation) ever mentioned the particular tool brands he was using.

And looking back on earlier seasons of This Old House, he was hand-nailing thousands of nails a day (nowadays he and everyone else often uses pneumatic tools for this).

I'm sure he prefers a certain brand, but unlike popular YouTube personalities and more 'celebrity' builders, he isn't a brand ambassador for Craftsman, DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, etc.

But yeah, when you talk about 'builders' (the more common carpenters you encounter on most job sites), it seems like most of them will die on a sword defending whatever brand(s) they've sunk a fortune into.

I'm a DeWalt guy, mostly because I invested in a 20V Max drill a long time ago and have a ton of batteries for all my electric tools now. But I used to use Makita before switching systems. I wouldn't call myself a master carpenter by any means, but like AvE, I find good and bad in almost all the 'top tier' lines from tool manufacturers.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#429

Post by mixmastamyk »

dangxiaopin wrote: post #391
AlphaSite wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, arguably they’ve been telling you too move for far longer. So it seems reasonable to sunset it after 10 years.

So migrate a large production codebase to unstable API? With dependencies not yet migrated?

Much of the work could have been done ahead of time.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#430

Post by toyg »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #426
toyg wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PyPy is a python-focused project that builds a python-focused runtime. My comment was more about projects trying to retrofit Python on top of runtimes that were built for very different languages, typically because of some constraint that has now disappeared.

The GIL constraint has not.

If the GIL is so important to you that you're willing to suffer the pain of running on another VM with a much-reduced ecosystem, while at the same time having requirements so complex that PyPy cannot meet them, maybe Python is just not the right tool for the project.
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