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The Cult of Kubernetes

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Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#151

Post by gambler »

grenoire wrote: post #137
wayoutthere wrote: post #127

I mean, good on the author, but this isn’t what Kubernetes is really for. Kubernetes is basically a way to run a Java-like application server that can run things other than Java. If that sounds like an appealing prospect to you, the complexity of Kubernetes may be a good fit. Kubernetes is complex because sometimes you need to be able to do complex things. Sometimes you operate at a scale where spending 12 hours writ…

Completely valid points, and I agree to all of them. Alas, as other commenters have pointed out, the issue is devs at smaller companies deploying smaller products buying into the idea that they need k8s. I believe that it is the community's duty to educate these devs on what k8s is and when it is needed.

They are probably scared that when they need to change jobs, the next company will require "5 years of Kubernetes experience". So they convince everyone at their current company to jump into a complexity clusterfuck to see how it works "in production" and can put it on their resume. This is how the entire IT industry works today.

I am fucking appalled writing config files is a noteworthy skill is 2019. So should you.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#152

Post by peteradio »

grenoire wrote: post #137
wayoutthere wrote: post #127

I mean, good on the author, but this isn’t what Kubernetes is really for. Kubernetes is basically a way to run a Java-like application server that can run things other than Java. If that sounds like an appealing prospect to you, the complexity of Kubernetes may be a good fit. Kubernetes is complex because sometimes you need to be able to do complex things. Sometimes you operate at a scale where spending 12 hours writ…

Completely valid points, and I agree to all of them. Alas, as other commenters have pointed out, the issue is devs at smaller companies deploying smaller products buying into the idea that they need k8s. I believe that it is the community's duty to educate these devs on what k8s is and when it is needed.

But they do need k8 ... on their resume.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#153

Post by wayoutthere »

rcarmo wrote: post #150
wayoutthere wrote: post #127

I mean, good on the author, but this isn’t what Kubernetes is really for. Kubernetes is basically a way to run a Java-like application server that can run things other than Java. If that sounds like an appealing prospect to you, the complexity of Kubernetes may be a good fit. Kubernetes is complex because sometimes you need to be able to do complex things. Sometimes you operate at a scale where spending 12 hours writ…

Well, maybe it isn't _only_ what it's for, but I have thought of doing largely the same and "bundle" a bunch of assorted projects onto a single 3-node cluster, including my blog. The only thing that's really prevented me from doing so is that I have my own micro-PaaS ( https://github.com/piku ) that makes it trivial to run a bunch of different apps/services on the same VPS, and the added complexity isn't really neces…

I mean, that’s kind of my point. It’s just not designed for that use case.

Someone could build a simplified fork / derivative of Kubernetes designed for this purpose. That would be pretty rad actually, but it would cease to be Kubernetes because the complexity is the point.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#154

Post by bovermyer »

I use Docker Swarm for my personal projects. It works, and when it doesn't, I can hit it with a hammer and knock all my sites offline for a few minutes and no one will notice. Then it comes back and I can forget about it for awhile again.

I'm looking at switching to Kubernetes. It will be more effort to set up and maintain, it will cost more in terms of infrastructure, and I have to write more automation to handle side effects. The benefit would be that I then know how to do this when I inevitably have to set up Kubernetes for my day job (I'm a consultant).

Automating the installation and configuration of apps on a raw VM would be far easier and make more sense for personal projects. I don't do this because I already know how to do this.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#155

Post by cameronbrown »

gambler wrote: post #151
grenoire wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely valid points, and I agree to all of them. Alas, as other commenters have pointed out, the issue is devs at smaller companies deploying smaller products buying into the idea that they need k8s. I believe that it is the community's duty to educate these devs on what k8s is and when it is needed.

They are probably scared that when they need to change jobs, the next company will require "5 years of Kubernetes experience". So they convince everyone at their current company to jump into a complexity clusterfuck to see how it works "in production" and can put it on their resume. This is how the entire IT industry works today. I am fucking appalled writing config files is a noteworthy skill is 2019. So should you.

K8S is hardly just "writing config files" is it? You've still got to understand a ton of moving parts underneath before you're able to.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#156

Post by cies »

arethuza wrote: post #136
wayoutthere wrote: post #127

I mean, good on the author, but this isn’t what Kubernetes is really for. Kubernetes is basically a way to run a Java-like application server that can run things other than Java. If that sounds like an appealing prospect to you, the complexity of Kubernetes may be a good fit. Kubernetes is complex because sometimes you need to be able to do complex things. Sometimes you operate at a scale where spending 12 hours writ…

Where would you draw the dividing line between where you think it does make sense to use something like Kubernetes and where it doesn't?

If you need your workload to span over an (possibly growing) number of server hardwares, you may want to use k8s.

There are other options that are good contenders in case of such a workload.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#157

Post by cameronbrown »

rcarmo wrote: post #150
wayoutthere wrote: post #127

I mean, good on the author, but this isn’t what Kubernetes is really for. Kubernetes is basically a way to run a Java-like application server that can run things other than Java. If that sounds like an appealing prospect to you, the complexity of Kubernetes may be a good fit. Kubernetes is complex because sometimes you need to be able to do complex things. Sometimes you operate at a scale where spending 12 hours writ…

Well, maybe it isn't _only_ what it's for, but I have thought of doing largely the same and "bundle" a bunch of assorted projects onto a single 3-node cluster, including my blog. The only thing that's really prevented me from doing so is that I have my own micro-PaaS ( https://github.com/piku ) that makes it trivial to run a bunch of different apps/services on the same VPS, and the added complexity isn't really neces…

> The only thing that's really prevented me from doing so is that I have my own micro-PaaS (https://github.com/piku) that makes it trivial to run a bunch of different apps/services on the same VPS, and the added complexity isn't really necessary.

How does it fare in production? I've got a tiny app with two containers (a frontend an a batch job) - it seems like a decent use case.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#158

Post by dosethree »

pjmlp wrote: post #93
taneq wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's typical for web application devs . There is a huge ecosystem of software developers outside of web services who are much less fad-happy and much more focused on using established tools to produce useful, reliable systems.

Not all of them though. Still happily using JEE/Spring/ASP.NET + VanillaJS in what concerns webdev projects.

Being old doesn't mean good. From my experience, using j2ee or spring to make a web app is grossly overcomplicated (I have heard of but not yet used spring boot). Asp.net is fine but anyone who is paying $$ for that is probably a dumbass

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#159

Post by kkapelon »

Kubernetes solves several problems. The big question is whether YOU HAVE those problems. If no, then K8s is indeed questionable/not needed.

I have a single question for the author of the article: Have you ever worked for a company where you must manage/deploy to N servers where N > 100 and applications are written in M programming languages where M > 3 ?

F.D. I work for Codefresh a CI/CD solution with built-in Kubernetes support

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#160

Post by 0x445442 »

collyw wrote: post #99
usgroup wrote: post #12

I think devs often make bad decision makers because in some sense tech is often an addiction rather than a pragmatic choice. The cycle of picking a tech, jumping ship to it, religiously evangelising it, riding the wave and then jumping ship to the next related tech is typical in my opinion. I try hard to correct for this bias but sometimes struggle with exactly the same thing. There's just something about wanting to…

Part of the problem is the hiring process (plus attitudes seen on here). Your resume needs to have lots of fashionable buzzwords rather than pragmatic good enough / keep it simple choices. You must keep on learning (lots of things rather than mastering any one thing). I can write a really nice site in standard Django with some JQuery, and it will take me half the time that adding React to it will. But adding React wi…

You've touched on some very key problems here.

It's seems like at some point around five years ago the three tier architecture with it's division of labor vanished over night. I'm not saying things were perfect back then but I've never seen any demonstrably objective reasons why it was replaced.

I went from having to be mindful a few configuration items which arose from deploying my war to different environments to slogging through configuration hell in the Terraform and AWS world. I've been learning way more about Ops than I ever cared to know while at the same time becoming a -10x developer in terms of shipping business value.

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