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CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

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Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#131

Post by DanBC »

jdietrich wrote: post #110
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any solid RCTs or meta analysis you could point me to about how much better they are than cigarettes? Agreed, there's a lot of FUD, but a lot of it is coming from sources that give me a lot of hesitation to doubt (lots of public health leaders, tobacco control groups, WHO people) I understand alcohol or weed is more harmful than vaping, I'm personally just interested in cigarettes as that seems to be the…

The link below is a systematic evidence review published by Public Health England, covering 415 studies relating to e-cigarettes and heated tobacco products. Key quotes: One assessment of the published data on emissions from cigarettes and EC calculated the lifetime cancer risks. It concluded that the cancer potencies of EC were largely under 0.5% of the risk of smoking. Comparative risks of cardiovascular disease an…

Don't forget that most of the evidence they used comes from research funded by the tobacco industry, and when you exclude that data the research shows more harm.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#132

Post by qzx_pierri »

Something about all the sudden bans in flavored, (enjoyable) vapes, mixed with the fear mongering all over the news makes me feel like this is all FUD being pushed by the tobacco industry. I mean, consider what’s happening. “Why vape if it’s flavorless and tasteless? At that point, I might as well stick to my Marlboro Reds, at least they have some established flavor” - I’m just playing devils advocate.

And about the “Think of the children!” replies - Classic red herring fallacy. Decent parenting and better local regulation could solve this problem. Or maybe it wouldn’t. Teenagers under the smoking age buy cigarettes every day, so vaping is no different.

I realize people are getting sick, but why is everyone acting like it’s “average” people getting sick like this? It’s those “HUGE CLOUD XD” people who are taking ridiculous sized rips, and black market THC vape carts. Juuls aren’t perfect, but their popularity and the losses to the tobacco industry’s profits make me wonder....

Very similar to the FUD campaign put out against La Croix last year when the 18-24 crowd stopped drinking soda, and started drinking sparkling water instead.

Source: https://nypost.com/2018/10/05/la-croix-hit-with-class-action...

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#133

Post by userbinator »

testis321 wrote: post #82

Vaping is great! Take someone who smokes two packs a day, give him a niccotine vape, and he gets all the 'high' he needs to fuel his addiciton, with (by some sources) only 10% of the "bad things" going in his lungs (compared to cigarettes). Less coughing, easier to reduce the dosage (just buy a liquid with less nicotine - you still keep your rutine and cigarette breaks, but slowly lower your addiction level). ...but.…

but the ones with very high power heating elements, producing HUGE amounts of smoke (for the youtube likes), and making the "bad stuff" intake into lungs comparable to actually smoking 2+ packs of cigarettes

I don't think those "cloud chasers" actually vape nicotine.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#134

Post by tdy_err »

cptskippy wrote: post #118
johngrefe wrote: post #33

I had a startup in Vaping(nicotine) and am still fairly in touch with the industry. There has been no major innovation in nicotine eliquid that would cause a sudden cluster of issues. It's stayed pretty constant since 2013 with the exception of Salt Nicotine, which Pax labs has a gras study published for. The majority of cases seems to be THC carts where it can be confirmed. One case was confirmed from a dispensary i…

In all my experience working for a non-profit that closely involves itself with the CDC and smoking related research, I would never describe the CDC's actions as over-the-top. They do all their own research and are very measured and even handed with their messaging. Contrast that to the FDA who have outsourced their job function to back to the companies they're supposed to be regulating.

Three are and have always been three components of e-liquid:

- propylene glycol (used in ice-cream soda etc)

- vegetable glycerin

- food flavoring

Besides proportions changing the only other variant is the type of flavoring. It's not actually too complicated. And If one of those ingredients was suddenly tainted people using vaporizers would not be the only ones affected, of course.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#135

Post by zaphar »

tdy_err wrote: post #134
cptskippy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all my experience working for a non-profit that closely involves itself with the CDC and smoking related research, I would never describe the CDC's actions as over-the-top. They do all their own research and are very measured and even handed with their messaging. Contrast that to the FDA who have outsourced their job function to back to the companies they're supposed to be regulating.

Three are and have always been three components of e-liquid: - propylene glycol (used in ice-cream soda etc) - vegetable glycerin - food flavoring Besides proportions changing the only other variant is the type of flavoring. It's not actually too complicated. And If one of those ingredients was suddenly tainted people using vaporizers would not be the only ones affected, of course.

All three of those elements are not usually vaporized and then inhaled in large quantities. Extrapolation from their effects when ingested is unlikely to apply in these cases.

Your conclusion does not follow from the evidence.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#136

Post by wastedhours »

cowsandmilk wrote: post #102
Reelin wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vaping being a safer alternative A safer alternative to what? Smoking cigarettes? There's absolutely no question that it is. One is a plant product (smoke is bad to inhale) that naturally contains a number chemicals that you probably don't want to be consuming. On top of this, there are additional additives (which vary by manufacturer) that also have significant health effects. Overview ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health effects of vaporizing those and inhaling them (along with other ingredients). You are happy to provide links about health effects of cigarettes, including ingredients present in n minute amounts, but will only provide a list of major ingredients in vaping product…

>> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin.

> What an extraordinary meaningless statement.

>> ...except when it isn't

Emphasis on "except when it isn't" which highlights the other impurities that might be there. I found the comment to be useful at highlighting what it was designed to highlight - that the safety depends entirely on what's inside the carts. You have no guarantees with some suppliers what the heck's actually inside, and I think saying "it's fairly simple at the base, but rather complicated in reality" is quite helpful for framing.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#137

Post by Dirlewanger »

testis321 wrote: post #82

Vaping is great! Take someone who smokes two packs a day, give him a niccotine vape, and he gets all the 'high' he needs to fuel his addiciton, with (by some sources) only 10% of the "bad things" going in his lungs (compared to cigarettes). Less coughing, easier to reduce the dosage (just buy a liquid with less nicotine - you still keep your rutine and cigarette breaks, but slowly lower your addiction level). ...but.…

>making the "bad stuff" intake into lungs comparable to actually smoking 2+ packs of cigarettes

Completely unquantifiable. We don't even know what the "bad stuff" is, and whether there can even be a fair comparison between burnt plant matter and vaporized nicotine oil (or propylene glycol or whatever it is).

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#138

Post by teknopaul »

DanBC wrote: post #103
cowsandmilk wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health effects of vaporizing those and inhaling them (along with other ingredients). You are happy to provide links about health effects of cigarettes, including ingredients present in n minute amounts, but will only provide a list of major ingredients in vaping product…

Is the question "is vaping harmful?" (because it probably is) or "is vaping about as harmful as smoking?" (because it almost certainly isn't).

Unless vaping makes you smoke more compared to cigarettes. In my experience it does. Nicoteen us crazily addictive whatever form you provide it in people will do that too much. The more convenient the more they will do it.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#139

Post by zaphar »

Reelin wrote: post #117
cowsandmilk wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health effects of vaporizing those and inhaling them (along with other ingredients). You are happy to provide links about health effects of cigarettes, including ingredients present in n minute amounts, but will only provide a list of major ingredients in vaping product…

> > The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. > What an extraordinary meaningless statement. Not at all. The point being made is that we're dealing with a product composed primarily (99%) of two chemicals that are very clearly established as safe for human consumption (propylene glycol is commonly _injected_). As such, it seems unreasonable to assume absent evidence that the c…

The ingredients you list are safe for human ingestion. It doesn't follow that they are safe for inhalation.

Your point that they are likely safer than cigarettes is well taken, but your insistence on the ingredients being known to be safe to inhale is faulty.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#140

Post by matwood »

Reelin wrote: post #80
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, yes, safer alternative to smoking cigarettes Fair enough, I'm sure it's not healthy to chronically inhale anything other than air > If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though. I was asking that but a broader question for me is, are there any safe replacements for ci…

> it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes No. IT IS NOT. You have been mislead. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, there is currently a lot of FUD and propaganda surrounding vaping. Perhaps due to the term "e-cigarette"? Other than artificial flavors, the major constituents in the liquid are what I listed above - propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, and nicotine. Onl…

> Bear in mind that I'm comparing this to smoking weed or drinking alcohol - both extremely common pastimes throughout the world, and both clearly more harmful than vaping.

What about the dosage though? The people I know who drink alcohol and have a beer or 2 on the weekend. The people I see who vape, do it constantly. Are there people who vape once or twice a week?

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