CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads • Hacker News Board

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#101

Post by apexalpha » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:04 AM UTC

slau wrote: post #54

moksly wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your optimism about the unknown, but there is the frightening possibility that maybe e-cigerattes will kill you more efficiently than your regular smokes. If you’re using it as a way to stop completely, then that’s awesome, but all Danish research on the subject has led to vaping being on our “not-recommended” list for ways of helping people quit.

Except for the fact that other ways don’t work. It’s not possible to slowly reduce your nicotine intake with cigarettes. The only alternative is: stop all your smoking habits, and maybe one of these nicotine substitutes will help. But that only adresses one part of the issue: the nicotine addiction. Smoking is a lot more complex than just the nicotine addiction. I know a lot of smokers who managed to take a break fro…

>It’s not possible to slowly reduce your nicotine intake with cigarettes. The only alternative is: stop all your smoking habits, and maybe one of these nicotine substitutes will help.

Why not? Just go from 2 packs a day to 1.9, to 1.8 etc..

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#102

Post by cowsandmilk » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:13 AM UTC

Reelin wrote: post #74

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was in the industry, what do you think about the argument of vaping being a safer alternative? I see pretty mixed things in the health community but it's tough because some of the argument seems to be that the tobacco industry has acted nefariously in the past so we can't trust any innovation in the space. Is there any known experience similar to vaping/smoking of today that has really minimal health c…

> vaping being a safer alternative A safer alternative to what? Smoking cigarettes? There's absolutely no question that it is. One is a plant product (smoke is bad to inhale) that naturally contains a number chemicals that you probably don't want to be consuming. On top of this, there are additional additives (which vary by manufacturer) that also have significant health effects. Overview ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin.

What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health effects of vaporizing those and inhaling them (along with other ingredients). You are happy to provide links about health effects of cigarettes, including ingredients present in n minute amounts, but will only provide a list of major ingredients in vaping products and provide no evidence on whether inhaling them is safe or not.

I believe the current scientific consensus is that more research is needed. These are fairly new products and studies have only started. There are definite impacts on the lung physiology and the heating process does cause chemical reactions between flavorants and the carrying solution creating new compounds such that even if the flavorants and major ingredients are safe independently (which they aren't, see next link), there are byproducts that are produce that may not be[2]. The glycerol in commercial vaping solution seems to be a source of impurities that are known to be harmful[3].

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31483291

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30335174

[3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31460462

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#103

Post by DanBC » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:16 AM UTC

cowsandmilk wrote: post #102

Reelin wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vaping being a safer alternative A safer alternative to what? Smoking cigarettes? There's absolutely no question that it is. One is a plant product (smoke is bad to inhale) that naturally contains a number chemicals that you probably don't want to be consuming. On top of this, there are additional additives (which vary by manufacturer) that also have significant health effects. Overview ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health effects of vaporizing those and inhaling them (along with other ingredients). You are happy to provide links about health effects of cigarettes, including ingredients present in n minute amounts, but will only provide a list of major ingredients in vaping product…

Is the question "is vaping harmful?" (because it probably is) or "is vaping about as harmful as smoking?" (because it almost certainly isn't).

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#104

Post by DanBC » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:24 AM UTC

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #81

Reelin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes No. IT IS NOT. You have been mislead. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, there is currently a lot of FUD and propaganda surrounding vaping. Perhaps due to the term "e-cigarette"? Other than artificial flavors, the major constituents in the liquid are what I listed above - propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, and nicotine. Onl…

Do you have any solid RCTs or meta analysis you could point me to about how much better they are than cigarettes? Agreed, there's a lot of FUD, but a lot of it is coming from sources that give me a lot of hesitation to doubt (lots of public health leaders, tobacco control groups, WHO people) I understand alcohol or weed is more harmful than vaping, I'm personally just interested in cigarettes as that seems to be the…

> Agreed, there's a lot of FUD, but a lot of it is coming from sources that give me a lot of hesitation to doubt (lots of public health leaders, tobacco control groups, WHO people)

None of these sources are saying that vaping is comparable to smoking in terms of harms caused.

They're saying that some harm is caused, and that we don't know what harms are caused, and so the precautionary principle means we should make sure that non-smokers do not take up vaping, and that smokers should use other nicotine replacement methods.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#105

Post by wp381640 » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:29 AM UTC

moksly wrote: post #34

wp381640 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might also explain why the cases seem confined to the USA and we're not seeing it amongst other large vaping populations like Canada and the UK There are too many fly-by-night and backyard operators in both the device and liquid industries - it is very reminiscent of the prohibition era where people died from bad batches of alcohol I'd really prefer to see a well-regulated industry as vaping is one of the best har…

Are you sure vaping is actually reducing potential harm? Because our national health agency isn’t[1]. As I understand it, a few brands come with a lower risk of certain tobacco induced cancers compared to smoking. Which is harm reduction, I guess, but research is suggesting that all vaping comes with greater risk to the respiratory system and heart. Of course the real issue in evaluating the safety of e-cigerates is…

> Are you sure vaping is actually reducing potential harm?

Yep. I quit smoking via 3 years of vaping and tapering down on nicotine. I've referred and seen no less than a half-dozen people I know do the same - some of the hardest smokers i've known (including my own fathers 40 year+ pack a day habit)

If anybody asks i'll always turn people onto vaping - even if they don't ask i'll push them towards it, nothing has gotten even close to working like vaping has a a quit mechanism

I really strongly believe that this is an area where regulations lag real-world experience and there are a ton of vested interests in preserving the existing regimes of either smoke tobacco or nothing at all

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#106

Post by dnate » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:41 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #48

cobbzilla wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the old joke about the guy at the fast-food joint: I’ll have a double bacon cheeseburger, a large fries, and a diet coke . Like — why are you buying this totally unhealthy meal and then getting a diet coke? Who are you kidding? Yet — I’ve been that guy. So it’s not so mind boggling.

I've been that guy too. Reason: I like diet coke. (Possible reason #2: a fat meal with diet coke is still healthier than the same meal with regular coke.)

yes, I don't see any problem with that order. Seems more like gatekeeping to me.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#107

Post by jdietrich » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:41 AM UTC

cowsandmilk wrote: post #102

Reelin wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vaping being a safer alternative A safer alternative to what? Smoking cigarettes? There's absolutely no question that it is. One is a plant product (smoke is bad to inhale) that naturally contains a number chemicals that you probably don't want to be consuming. On top of this, there are additional additives (which vary by manufacturer) that also have significant health effects. Overview ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health effects of vaporizing those and inhaling them (along with other ingredients). You are happy to provide links about health effects of cigarettes, including ingredients present in n minute amounts, but will only provide a list of major ingredients in vaping product…

I don't have time to thoroughly examine your references right now, but I can tell you off the bat that the third study is very poor - they measured vapor samples at 500°F and 600°F, which is substantially in excess of normal vaping temperatures and would almost certainly produce an acrid, foul-tasting vapor. The presence of CO in the vapor samples clearly indicates oxidation rather than vaporisation. Of course you get lots of nasty byproducts if you burn the liquid.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#108

Post by Nursie » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:48 AM UTC

cobbzilla wrote: post #28

mlindner wrote: post #5

It amazes me people freak out about GMOs and the material Starbucks cups are made out of yet will breathe vaporized chemicals of who knows what sorts directly into their lungs. Mind boggling.

Reminds me of the old joke about the guy at the fast-food joint: I’ll have a double bacon cheeseburger, a large fries, and a diet coke . Like — why are you buying this totally unhealthy meal and then getting a diet coke? Who are you kidding? Yet — I’ve been that guy. So it’s not so mind boggling.

Not making it worse by piling on a huge amount more sugar?

I mean, it's not a weight loss strategy but it's some form of harm reduction...

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#109

Post by HeraldEmbar » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:50 AM UTC

It’s a worthy mention that it’s mostly THC vapes. Rarely nicotine vapes alone.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#110

Post by jdietrich » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 10:51 AM UTC

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #81

Reelin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes No. IT IS NOT. You have been mislead. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, there is currently a lot of FUD and propaganda surrounding vaping. Perhaps due to the term "e-cigarette"? Other than artificial flavors, the major constituents in the liquid are what I listed above - propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, and nicotine. Onl…

Do you have any solid RCTs or meta analysis you could point me to about how much better they are than cigarettes? Agreed, there's a lot of FUD, but a lot of it is coming from sources that give me a lot of hesitation to doubt (lots of public health leaders, tobacco control groups, WHO people) I understand alcohol or weed is more harmful than vaping, I'm personally just interested in cigarettes as that seems to be the…

The link below is a systematic evidence review published by Public Health England, covering 415 studies relating to e-cigarettes and heated tobacco products. Key quotes:

One assessment of the published data on emissions from cigarettes and EC calculated the lifetime cancer risks. It concluded that the cancer potencies of EC were largely under 0.5% of the risk of smoking.

Comparative risks of cardiovascular disease and lung disease have not been quantified but are likely to be also substantially below the risks of smoking. Among EC users, two studies of biomarker data for acrolein, a potent respiratory irritant, found levels consistent with non-smoking levels.

Biomarkers of exposure assessed to date are consistent with significant reductions in harmful constituents and for a few biomarkers assessed in this chapter, similar levels to smokers abstaining from smoking or non-smokers were observed.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...