Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties • Hacker News Board

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#711

Post by DoctorOetker » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:02 AM UTC

nullc wrote: post #689

cjbprime wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically, the most charitable Minsky interpretation which we're being persuaded to take here seems to go something like: * in 2002, Minsky asks Epstein to host an AI conference for him on his island * while there, is apparently angry to discover that Epstein is prostituting girls * later in the 2000s, presumably discovers that Epstein has now been convicted of prostituting girls * in 2011, Minsky asks Epstein to…

Where are you getting the idea that Minsky knew any of it was at Epstein's direction or that she was underage? The description by Benford was that at Epstein's event a young woman explicitly propositioned Minsky, he rejected her advance and was put off by the experience enough to remark to Benford about it. It might well be that there were additional details-- that the offer was "Hi, I'm 17 and my boss says I need to…

If a bunch of underage girls were unexpectedly present, and obviously had nothing to contribute regarding artificial intelligence, then 2002 Minsky can only conclude Epstein (as the organizer) welcomed the underage girls, or else Epstein (as the organizer) would have thrown them out. It's on an island, it's not a small town music concert where girls can jump the fence to skip entrance fees... they would literally have to swim to the island in order to ... attend an AI conference? Everybody present must have known what the girls were for.

How do you explain his experiencing and concluding this and repeat by asking Epstein for another conference?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#712

Post by ryacko » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 5:11 AM UTC

joewee wrote: post #704

pryce wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe you responded cjbprime's point here at all . To make it 100% clear: the most sympathetic reading of Minksy's defense seems highly implausible: that he noticed and objected to prostituion of girls on Epsteins island in 2002 and subsequently, after Epstein's public conviction for trafficking girls and after encountering prostitution on Epstein's private island the first time, he still decided to host a…

He was never convicted of trafficking. And there are no public records that indicate attendees of his events were aware that women were being paid or forced to have sex with attendees. At least try to convict the dead man with facts and not innuendo.

The fact pattern for the plea agreement would lead one to conclude that Epstein could have been convicted for trafficking, and there certainly were rumors. It seems as if Epstein and his associates took everything rather lightly, which is something that the criminal justice system does not reward?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#713

Post by darawk » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 6:14 AM UTC

pvg wrote: post #709

darawk wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So dude who is (at the time) convicted of a sexual crime involving a minor shows up at MIT Media Lab with a pair of very young, model-looking women assistants, what what are rational moral actors supposed to think? That he's just a railroaded maverick? It was unstated what the age or appearance of the women in question was. If they were of legal age, then they were likely simply escorts, in no need of anyone's resc…

Someone was troubled enough to resign over this. Like, what the fuck, at his point, man? Every single comment you have posted about this includes some blatant misrepresentation.

> Someone was troubled enough to resign over this. Like, what the fuck, at his point, man?

People resign over things all the time. That isn't really evidence of much at all.

> Every single comment you have posted about this includes some blatant misrepresentation

You keep acting like you've made actual points, but you haven't. I'm happy to listen to your point of view, if you actually want to articulate one. You are calling out "misrepresentations". What do you think i've misrepresented?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#714

Post by pvg » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 7:18 AM UTC

darawk wrote: post #713

pvg wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone was troubled enough to resign over this. Like, what the fuck, at his point, man? Every single comment you have posted about this includes some blatant misrepresentation.

> Someone was troubled enough to resign over this. Like, what the fuck, at his point, man? People resign over things all the time. That isn't really evidence of much at all. > Every single comment you have posted about this includes some blatant misrepresentation You keep acting like you've made actual points, but you haven't. I'm happy to listen to your point of view, if you actually want to articulate one. You are…

I am making an actual point. You started with conflating whatever happened to Epstein with felon disenfranchisement. Somewhere in the middle you made up a definition of 'ostracism'. Now you're saying a person convicted of sexual abuse of a minor should raise no questions when he brings women half his age to an MIT fundraising meeting.

I'm happy to put it directly to you again. What the actual fuck?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#715

Post by jackvalentine » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 7:28 AM UTC

fatbird wrote: post #701

jackvalentine wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general argument of 'it's okay to take money from bad people as long as that money isn't blood money and you take it anonymously' is hard for me to sympathize with. At the very least it gives that person leverage over you in two ways: firstly by the threat of ceasing donations if you become dependent on them and secondly by the threat of revealing their involvement in your institution.

Agreed, and I would that there's no such thing as "anonymously" except with respect to offical records. All the office staff knew it was Epstein. Donors outside the circle (like Bill Gates) knew Epstein was an agent of the Media Lab collecting donations. There's no meaningful sense of "anonymity", which makes Lessig's description of it as a shield almost comical.

This whole sordid affair and some of the ways people are commenting and writing about it has been one of those situations where I'm taken aback by how differently some people see it to me.

Just... don't deal with bad people if you can avoid it. Maybe your institute's endowment will have to remain at 16 billion dollars instead of increasing to 16.02. If MIT (and the MIT media lab) don't have FU money then who does?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#716

Post by DoctorOetker » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 7:46 AM UTC

DoctorOetker wrote: post #711

nullc wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you getting the idea that Minsky knew any of it was at Epstein's direction or that she was underage? The description by Benford was that at Epstein's event a young woman explicitly propositioned Minsky, he rejected her advance and was put off by the experience enough to remark to Benford about it. It might well be that there were additional details-- that the offer was "Hi, I'm 17 and my boss says I need to…

If a bunch of underage girls were unexpectedly present, and obviously had nothing to contribute regarding artificial intelligence, then 2002 Minsky can only conclude Epstein (as the organizer) welcomed the underage girls, or else Epstein (as the organizer) would have thrown them out. It's on an island, it's not a small town music concert where girls can jump the fence to skip entrance fees... they would literally hav…

to late to edit:

"Everybody present must have known what the girls were for."

=>

"Everybody present must have known what the girls were for, including Greg Benford."

Did Greg Benford join more of Epstein's conferences afterwards? How is Greg Benford positive it is the same girl or the same event?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#717

Post by sobani » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 8:09 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #653

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please forgive me for presupposing that your life is nothing close to the lives of the people we are discussing here and your intuition is not a useful model for figuring out what is normal and what isn't.

Yes, I did actively avoid until now to befriend convicted paedophiles, apparently for people like Ito or Minsky that was too much to ask.

So how do I go about finding out if someone is convicted of anything?

I just googled how to get someone's criminal record and the answer is basically: you can only get your own criminal record, because of privacy. If someone else, for example an employer, wants your criminal record, you have to get it yourself and give it to them.

I know a few people who are easily 10x more powerful than I am. In your experience, how can I best approach them to have them give me a copy of their criminal record?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#718

Post by darawk » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 8:14 AM UTC

pvg wrote: post #714

darawk wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone was troubled enough to resign over this. Like, what the fuck, at his point, man? People resign over things all the time. That isn't really evidence of much at all. > Every single comment you have posted about this includes some blatant misrepresentation You keep acting like you've made actual points, but you haven't. I'm happy to listen to your point of view, if you actually want to articulate one. You are…

I am making an actual point. You started with conflating whatever happened to Epstein with felon disenfranchisement. Somewhere in the middle you made up a definition of 'ostracism'. Now you're saying a person convicted of sexual abuse of a minor should raise no questions when he brings women half his age to an MIT fundraising meeting. I'm happy to put it directly to you again. What the actual fuck?

> You started with conflating whatever happened to Epstein with felon disenfranchisement

I have articulated a justification for that comparison. You making an actual point would be referencing that justification and attempting to debunk it. That's how you make actual points.

> Somewhere in the middle you made up a definition of 'ostracism'.

I made one up? MIT refusing to accept donations from someone is not my definition of ostracism. It is the definition of ostracism. You may believe that that ostracism is justified, but the word's meaning is quite clear.

> Now you're saying a person convicted of sexual abuse of a minor should raise no questions when he brings women half his age to an MIT fundraising meeting.

I did not, in fact, say that.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#719

Post by pvg » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 8:30 AM UTC

darawk wrote: post #718

pvg wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am making an actual point. You started with conflating whatever happened to Epstein with felon disenfranchisement. Somewhere in the middle you made up a definition of 'ostracism'. Now you're saying a person convicted of sexual abuse of a minor should raise no questions when he brings women half his age to an MIT fundraising meeting. I'm happy to put it directly to you again. What the actual fuck?

> You started with conflating whatever happened to Epstein with felon disenfranchisement I have articulated a justification for that comparison. You making an actual point would be referencing that justification and attempting to debunk it. That's how you make actual points. > Somewhere in the middle you made up a definition of 'ostracism'. I made one up? MIT refusing to accept donations from someone is not my defini…

It is the definition of ostracism.

No. Not even close. I left you a lengthy comment about this to which you did not respond.

I have articulated

You're making excuses for a child rapist. Over and over and over. Again, what the fuck, man? Once again, I'm asking you this directly.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#720

Post by testis321 » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 9:13 AM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #76

testis321 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry, but a 60-something "finance" guy with an entourage of teen models doesn't add up. The only problematic thing here is the age of those models. Otherwise, rich people like that are often surrounded with girls of questionable morals and intentions, who do stuff and in return get stuff (some would call it prostitution, some would imply that prostitution had an agreement done in advance...). In some poorer countr…

Such behavior might be "OK" in the "champagne room" of a strip club. Unfortunately we're talking here about the MIT Media Lab!

When you reach a certain level of education and class, those "gold digger girlfriends" become "a wife", that others call "a trophy wife". I think MIT had many of those there.