America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#61

Post by inferiorhuman » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:09 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #52

perl4ever wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the process/after writing the above comment, I was looking at Amtrak's schedules, and thinking about the concept of commuting to NYC from Albany. It occurred to me after a minute, to imagine a job where, instead of trying to get to the city in time for work, I got on the train more like 8-9 AM, and was considered to be "at work" on my laptop for the next couple of hours, and the same coming home. Perhaps there are…

Of course, that begs the question of: If you can do your job on a train on your laptop, why the hell are you traveling to an office in the first place? The best car alternative is not going anywhere.

Of course, that begs the question

Begging the question is a logical fallacy.

If you can do your job on a train on your laptop, why the hell are you traveling to an office in the first place?

Potentially there are some, but not all, parts of the job that can be done without face-to-face interaction. Or potentially there are parts of the job that can be done without face-to-face interaction but would still benefit from being in the office.

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#62

Post by mycall » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:10 AM UTC

baroffoos wrote: post #36

oakesm9 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of this is down to the driver being the only staff member on the bus. They should be fully focused on driving as a bus hitting anything is bad news. Stopping to kick people off just delays everyone on the bus getting where they need to go. If there was a conductor on the bus then they could deal with inappropriate behaviour, but no bus company wants to pay two members of staff when they can get away with one.

Would be interesting to see if we can create self driving buses and have the driver change roles to become payment management and enforcing a safe area in the bus.

If no one is driving, it makes citizens do more of the work.. in a crowded bus, a group of normal people could throw the asshole off. Eventually, the assholes won't ride the bus.

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#63

Post by fyfy18 » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:11 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #18

perl4ever wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The thing I hate about buses in many cities is that they take longer than driving to get somewhere." In my experience they take within a few minutes of walking somewhere, and perhaps three times as long as bicycling, never mind driving. Perhaps someone will say that this indicates my local bus system is terrible, but I don't see what could be improved about it. If they want to serve the people who actually ride the…

Buses are most viable when combined with a well developed rail system. Then it's worthwhile as an alternative to dealing with parking at the train stations and because you won't have your car on the other end of that rail journey.

Express bus lines can also work in a similar role: You end up taking a feeder route for 10-15 minutes that is barely faster than cycling[0], the switch to an express route where you have one or two stops and is equivalent in speed to driving. Obviously capacity is lower, but it's a lot cheaper to setup a bus route than rail route.

[0] Even in London where buses stop every few hundred meters they are faster than walking (unless there is a lot of traffic). How badly designed is GPs system?

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#64

Post by fyfy18 » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:21 AM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #5

malandrew wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand privileging buses but under what pretenses should we privilege taxis over transportation network companies? If anything, only pool ridesharing companies should get the benefit of these intracity HOV lanes.

My comment wasn't a justification of allowing taxis to use those lanes, I was just pointing out how well they worked anecdotally. I think the transit lanes can be used by buses, taxis, chauffeured cars, etc. Mainly for politicians/important people to get the airport or city quickly I suppose. I think since taxis pay heavy license fees to the state (whereas Uber etc. cars only pay car registration like all other cars)…

One reason why only licensed taxis can use those lanes is to prevent regular people using them.

If you just needed to sign up to be an Uber driver, and you could use the HOV lane, everyone would do it. Even if you had to do that and pay a fee of $5000/year, there would be plenty of people who could justify that over the time saved in traffic (but probably not Uber drivers).

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#65

Post by coding123 » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:22 AM UTC

tengbretson wrote: post #53

iso1337 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that if you get rid of those busses then the traffic will be even worse right? Even if all of those people end up carpooling, they'll occupy way more space in the HOV lane. The real solution should be to expand the number of HOV lanes.

> The real solution should be to expand the number of HOV lanes. Haven't you heard that increasing the number of lanes makes traffic worse?

I think (and may be wrong) they meant conversion of lanes to HOV, but not actually increase lanes.

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#66

Post by inferiorhuman » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:23 AM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #57

perl4ever wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The thing I hate about buses in many cities is that they take longer than driving to get somewhere." In my experience they take within a few minutes of walking somewhere, and perhaps three times as long as bicycling, never mind driving. Perhaps someone will say that this indicates my local bus system is terrible, but I don't see what could be improved about it. If they want to serve the people who actually ride the…

I took the bus to work from marin to san Francisco. I did so even though driving is faster because (a) in the morning, i could do work the moment i got on the bus (free WiFi) instead of shouting at the driver in front of me, (b) because i started work earlier, I could leave earlier and (c) in the evening i could browse the internet and watch Netflix on my way home. The extra 15 minutes i spent because I took the bus…

Marin to San Francisco is an interesting example because Marin Transit has next to no idea what the fuck they're doing. My experience over a few decades is that getting to/from Marin-SF on public transit typically takes 2-3 hours depending on how far away from downtown SF and 3rd/Hetherton you're going. If the delta between driving and taking the bus is only 15 minutes you either get stuck in awful traffic or live very close to a 30/70/101 bus stop.

Grievances:

The 101 is a great idea, a limited stop bus from SF to Santa Rosa that can basically camp out in the carpool lane. Except that in their infinite wisdom, Marin Transit doesn't actually time transfers in San Rafael. Unless you live within walking distance of a 101 stop you're often just wasting your time.

Real-time predictions sound great, except that Marin Transit is pairing with the Transit app. For a while was providing completely fabricated predictions. Sorry, you're only going to leave me stranded in the middle of the night once before I dump your app. NextBus has its share of problems too, but the difference is that Muni runs such frequent service you're more concerned with predictions and headways than with schedules. Marin Transit runs such sparse service that you absolutely need to adhere to a schedule.

A zone based fare system sounds reasonable to most people. Unfortunately Marin Transit is not set up to refund overcharges when you can't tag off as you exit the vehicle (e.g. when their own equipment doesn't work). Zone based fares also complicate cash payments wildly slowing down the boarding process. Unfortunately Marin Transit refuses to let people alight from or board with RFID payment via the rear doors slowing down the whole process even more.

The Golden Gate Bridge District (one of the folks Marin Transit contracts out to) leased another ferry knowing that the engine wasn't compliant with California emissions requirements. In their due diligence they never realized that it is physically impossible to retrofit a compliant engine into that heap. It's still not in revenue service.

Historically there have been very few feeder routes because people tend to like to keep the poors out (Tiburon is notoriously bad). So to get from Marin to San Francisco you're often walking all the way out to the highway, sometimes along roads with no sidewalks (I'm looking at you Sleepy Hollow). SMART also suffers because of this. Getting to a SMART station can easily be a 30 minute walk along a route with no bus service.

That said, things don't actually have to be this way. But Marin likes its privilege[1].

1: https://www.reddit.com/r/Marin/comments/coz8ro/smart_train_s...

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#67

Post by inferiorhuman » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:27 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #25

m3jia wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buses i most US cities just aren't viable. A lot of cities really don't work well if you don't own a car at all, and if you own one a bus will never win driving and parking in the big lot. In NYC, buses work, and people take them because they have to. They could be better but the alternative is hundreds of dollars in parking if you think about owning a car.

You have to at some point accept that the vast majority of people, while they don't live in nowheresville, Montana, also don't live in the very largest cities. A million or two people within say 10-15 miles is the sort of place a large portion of the country lives, and changing that on a national scale seems very far fetched to me. 85% of the country by population is outside the metro areas of NYC, LA, Chicago, and D…

It's also not reasonable to assume the resources exist for infrastructure like the largest cities.

Cities have actively made decisions to design cities around the car at the expense of every other mode of traffic. It's pretty unreasonable to expect that the status quo can't change.

In fact if you look at the Bay Area, the problems with transit are largely due to other sorts of dysfunction, not due to lack of funding. Los Angeles, OTOH, has been building out public transit in a coordinated way (far more successfully than the Bay Area has). IOW where there's a will there's a way.

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#68

Post by danans » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:32 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #54

momokoko wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not aware, this type of comment is fairly common on HN when discussing public transit. > Make the bus an experience that at least doesn't make want people want to vomit and then people may start to take the bus again. Please do not take personal offense to this, but this type of comment leads me to believe that you have very derogatory views of people that have chosen or have ended up in different life pat…

Contrary to what some people believe, the “general population” follows rules and decorum and doesn’t like people blaring music on the bus, or aggressive pan handlers, or people talking to themselves any more than OP does. If they had a bit more money they’d be driving instead to get away from the troublemakers just like OP. And they are the ones who suffer most when elitists insist that public transit (and public sch…

> And they are the ones who suffer most when elitists insist that public transit (and public schools, etc.) should be forced to deal with troubled or anti-social people, be de facto homeless shelters, etc.

I've gotta second this. Public transit and schools end up dealing with many of the US' social ills because we don't want to pay to deal with the problems directly.

I don't blame the homeless folks on the train, as uncomfortable as it is to be on the train with them, because I realize that many people wealthy enough to never have to take the train feel it's not worth the higher taxes and building of housing + treatment facilities needed to deal with the problem.

The status quo almost seems to be working as intended.

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#69

Post by Rebelgecko » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:34 AM UTC

momokoko wrote: post #34

johnmarcus wrote: post #17

you can't just tell people to "love the bus", the bus has to actually be loveable. No one is avoiding the bus because 'climate change is cool man, fuck the bus'. People don't ride the bus because it's jam packed shoulder to shoulder, can smell like puke and piss, subsidezed homeless travel while the rest of us need to pay a dumb fare, requires exact change in world ruled by tap-to-pay devices. And then yeah, traffic…

If you are not aware, this type of comment is fairly common on HN when discussing public transit. > Make the bus an experience that at least doesn't make want people want to vomit and then people may start to take the bus again. Please do not take personal offense to this, but this type of comment leads me to believe that you have very derogatory views of people that have chosen or have ended up in different life pat…

>derogatory views of people that have chosen or have ended up in different life paths

I have no qualms admitting that I have derogatory views regarding the homeless guy that screams racial slurs at the driver when he's asked to stop smoking on the bus. Most people aren't concerned about the "average" passenger, they're concerned about the worst one you'll experience on a given day. And the worst can range from minor things like the kid blasting shitty trap music on his bluetooth speaker, to someone who is in such a low place in life that it would actually improve their situation to shove you in front of a train and spend the rest of their life being housed and fed in prison.

Re: America’s Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever (2018)

#70

Post by tathougies » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 4:37 AM UTC

inferiorhuman wrote: post #66

tathougies wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took the bus to work from marin to san Francisco. I did so even though driving is faster because (a) in the morning, i could do work the moment i got on the bus (free WiFi) instead of shouting at the driver in front of me, (b) because i started work earlier, I could leave earlier and (c) in the evening i could browse the internet and watch Netflix on my way home. The extra 15 minutes i spent because I took the bus…

Marin to San Francisco is an interesting example because Marin Transit has next to no idea what the fuck they're doing. My experience over a few decades is that getting to/from Marin-SF on public transit typically takes 2-3 hours depending on how far away from downtown SF and 3rd/Hetherton you're going. If the delta between driving and taking the bus is only 15 minutes you either get stuck in awful traffic or live ve…

Golden gate transit and marin transit are different authorities. I like golden gate transit. The buses are the best public ones I've ever been in. Ive lived in marin and South bay and marin is way more connected to SF. Bus service runs much more consistently from and to more parts of the city than anything from South bay (if i recall correctly, some routes are 24/7)

I took the 24 and yes i lived near a bus stop because thats what you should do when you have money (like everyone in marin) and are choosing where to live.

Marin is by far the most livable and accessible place in all the bay area. You can get to all parts (including the coast and natural areas) via regular bus service and some walking which puts it lightyears ahead of South bay.