Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties • Hacker News Board

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#641

Post by JabavuAdams » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

nf8nnfufuu wrote: post #280

liability wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You read the first half of what exactly? From the subtitle of the article you responded to: > New documents show that the M.I.T. Media Lab was aware of Epstein’s status as a convicted sex offender, and that Epstein directed contributions to the lab far exceeding the amounts M.I.T. has publicly admitted. What did you think "Epstein’s status as a convicted sex offender" meant? Are you earnestly confused, or are you try…

I read the first half of this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/business/mit-media-lab-je... That is the original article this while comment thread is attached to. It doesn't mention existing convictions in the first half. I didn't read the article the comment I replied to linked to. I am not a robot. I can not simply recursively read the whole internet. I was curious about the supposedly "damning paragraph", not a…

I can see how this happened. Maybe Wikipedia the name next time? Associating with Epstein after 2008-2011 is a red line for me.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#642

Post by fortran77 » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

point78 wrote: post #573

fortran77 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are we judging people by their looks? Is that what the righteous thought-leaders of Y Combinator and Hacker News do? Why are young women who look like "models" not credible at MIT Media Lab?

The keywords in my sentence was "american" and "eastern european" EE is known for sex trafficking young beautiful women and mainly in Europe. That an American has his hands on them is even stranger.

I don't disagree that something didn't appear right here. However, the folks here at Hacker News are only judging these women by their appearance and nothing else.

It's not good when an attractive young person visiting MIT is viewed with suspicion because of some prejudice against attractive individuals and youth.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#643

Post by JabavuAdams » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

The social network / ostracism obligation aspects of this are fascinating and personal for me.

Within the last couple of years I became aware of an extended family member who was intermittently violently abusing his wife. This is someone I see at most once a year, usually at funerals.

I spent a lot of time thinking about what I would do if I found myself in a social situation with this person. The best I could come up with was personal ostracism.

I decided that I would not call him out, due to fear of unintended consequences, but that I would treat him as a pariah. At a recent family reunion, I was set to avoid him, but all of a sudden he was next to me, asking after me, and jutting out his hand for a shake. I reflexively shook his hand (I fucking hated myself at that moment), but managed to turn away and put my back to him as he was talking.

I feel like I eventually held up to my principles, but was a disgusted by how the people around me just ignored the elephant in the room. And yet ... difficult situation to be in. I mean this as a bystander, not someone with something to gain from associating with him.

EDIT> The time of "open secrets" needs to be over. I dislike gag orders and secret settlements because they deprive the public of crucial information. How many people are victimized by someone who is anecdotally known to be dangerous, but still socially tolerated? Epstein was radioactive since 2008-2011, and we should be very critical of anyone who treated him normally after that period.

EDIT2> My family member had already been reported to the police and his wife went back to him. So, he's on record as being an abuser. I am not covering for him in that sense.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#644

Post by stale2002 » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #640

sharpneli wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal definitions of this differ per country. As an example pedophilia in Finland is defined in criminal code as having sex with a person under 16. Rape is a different crime. Sure you can also define it using rape and defining that a minor cannot give consent. In the end these are just semantics. End result is the same.

There are no situations where an 11 year old having sex with a grown adult man isn’t rape. Sure, some cultures or religions might say otherwise, but at the end of the day it’s just basic ethics. It is just semantics, but everything in our life is semantics, so words are important. “Having sex” makes it sound casual and like relationship of equals, which it is not.

> It is just semantics, but everything in our life is semantics, so words are important.

Only if you don't understand the meaning that someone is intending to impart by using those words.

And I'd say that in this case, there should have been zero confusion, and that it was perfectly clear what people were trying to say, so the words used don't matter.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#645

Post by csallen » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

cjbprime wrote: post #501

anon2947 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a few more of Xeni's tweets, and wanted to get HN's honest opinion on them. It seems (to me) like a lot of people on Twitter (and HN?) are over-reacting. For example, Xeni's pinned tweet references this other tweet ( https://twitter.com/xeni/status/1165266579560521728 ), which implies that anybody who was ever at a dinner with Epstein should be considered complicit in Epstein's crimes. Take this quote, for exa…

> Steven Pinker, Marvin Minsky It just sounds like you haven't been paying attention at all. Are you aware that a woman has claimed that she was forced to have sex with Marvin Minsky by Epstein on his island? https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef... Are you aware that Pinker has flown on the "Lolita Express" and helped with Epstein's legal defense, a legal defense that led to him avoiding a pri…

> Are you aware that Pinker has flown on the "Lolita Express"

(1) This happened in 2002, (2) Pinker didn't know Epstein personally at the time and the ticket was booked by his literary agent, (3) the flight was to a science-related event in California and included other scientists who were also booked by the same literary agent.

Simply saying, "Pinker has flown on the Lolita Express" and leaving it at that is an intentionally misleading attempt to create a false image of what happened in the reader's mind.

> Pinker… helped with Epstein's legal defense

Alan Dershowitz, a professor at Harvard alongside Pinker, represented Epstein in that case. Pinker is a linguist. At some point Alan asked Pinker for his opinion about the semantics of a law, Pinker gave it, and that opinion was cited in a court document.

Again, it's intentionally misleading to simply say that Pinker helped with Epstein's legal defense that led to him avoiding a prison term.

This is one of the worst things about the Internet -- people happily joining in on witch hunts intended to destroy other people based on no more information than a misleading soundbite, headline, or tweet.

You're proving the OP's point about overreactions.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#646

Post by nf8nnfufuu » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 5:57 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #593

nf8nnfufuu wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in no way defending Epstein in any way. It is horrifying how many people in this thread seem to be unable to understand that. I hope nobody of you works in the legal system. You have a prejudice, and you can only see what confirms your prejudice, despite nothing of it being there. You think I defend Epstein, but I never did. I asked a question about a paragraph describing a scene of a guy visiting MIT Media Lab w…

The context is very relevant though. Epstein already was a known, convicted sex offender by the point he was visiting MIT Media Lab with his young ladies of questionable status in tow. It's not relevant to the matters at hand that you, a random person who wasn't there, was not aware of the context. You can't remove this question from its context. The people at MIT Media Lab who were worried about it certainly were aw…

Somebody posted an excerpt from an article, saying it was "damning". It describes of a scene where Epstein visited Media Lab, accompanied by two young women. The context that he was already a known sex offender at that point was not given.

Why do you get so worked up? I asked a question about the paragraph. The answer "it was already known that he was a sex offender" is sufficient to answer my question. Why don't you just answer it and move on with your life? It's not my fault that the question blew up.

I am not asking to be spoonfed. The answer "it was already known he was a sex offender" is sufficient to answer my question. That several other discussions sprang from it is another matter.

I really don't know what your problem is, or your concern? If it doesn't interest you, move on to the next topic on HN? There are hundreds every day. What issue do you have, exactly?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#647

Post by sharpneli » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #640

sharpneli wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal definitions of this differ per country. As an example pedophilia in Finland is defined in criminal code as having sex with a person under 16. Rape is a different crime. Sure you can also define it using rape and defining that a minor cannot give consent. In the end these are just semantics. End result is the same.

There are no situations where an 11 year old having sex with a grown adult man isn’t rape. Sure, some cultures or religions might say otherwise, but at the end of the day it’s just basic ethics. It is just semantics, but everything in our life is semantics, so words are important. “Having sex” makes it sound casual and like relationship of equals, which it is not.

There are benefits of this style. The whole point of the law is that having sex when not equal is the bad thing, not the inability of a minor to consent.

Here it’s quite common that an 18 and 15 year old who are dating are being relieved from the criminal responsibility because they are considered to be close enough in their stages of development by the judge.

It may be harder to do that if it’s defined via rape. Because how would the development level of the older partner affect the younger ones inability to consent.

Personally I’d rather have this way instead of reading from the news how a married couple has the older one saying they are a registered sex offender because they banged eachother as teens.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#648

Post by danso » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 6:08 PM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #507

asveikau wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember similar stories about people who took money from Harvey Weinstein, for example there was an AIDS nonprofit he gave millions to. It all highlights the difficult job facing people tasked with taking money from donors in this way. They won't always have 20/20 hindsight. They may learn about sketchiness after they already took the money. They may be so blinded by what they see as generosity and good will that…

What's wrong with a charity accepting donations from someone naughty? It doesn't make them complicit in their offences. Criminals often donate money to charities and victims in an effort to get reduced sentences, at least in my country.

Didn’t you answer your own question here? Criminals paying money to reduce the penalties from their crimes seems like a net negative for society, even if it helps charity.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#649

Post by GuiA » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

sharpneli wrote: post #647

GuiA wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no situations where an 11 year old having sex with a grown adult man isn’t rape. Sure, some cultures or religions might say otherwise, but at the end of the day it’s just basic ethics. It is just semantics, but everything in our life is semantics, so words are important. “Having sex” makes it sound casual and like relationship of equals, which it is not.

There are benefits of this style. The whole point of the law is that having sex when not equal is the bad thing, not the inability of a minor to consent. Here it’s quite common that an 18 and 15 year old who are dating are being relieved from the criminal responsibility because they are considered to be close enough in their stages of development by the judge. It may be harder to do that if it’s defined via rape. Bec…

I agree with you, and this is why my original post specifically referred to a preteen and an adult.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#650

Post by Iwan-Zotow » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

areoform wrote: post #364

This is gossip, but it’s well founded gossip as I am one or two hops away from him. Epstein was very upfront with the people he worked what that he liked “young woman” while giving them money and invited them to his parties etc. I think it was his way to enmesh them and make them unwitting partners in his systemic abuse. Most people just went along, and were eventually given a massage from a child at his behest to fu…

Man, did you lose those 10 pounds?