Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties • Hacker News Board

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#581

Post by NateEag » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 12:39 PM UTC

docker_up wrote: post #453

chasing wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know what we’re arguing. If you want to professionally associate with people who have raped and exploited kids from a position of extreme wealth and privilege, then I guess you’re probably legally allowed to, as long as you’re not putting people in danger. You have to decide where you’re at on that. I know where I’m at. I think most people do. Which is why they’re disgusted.

The question isn't about legality. It's about morality. Is it morally wrong to judge people who decide to associate with criminals after they have served their sentence? That to me is the crux of the issue here. What it sounds like is that criminals are not absolved by serving their sentence. Or maybe some are but it depends on the crime? And sometimes it's okay to ostracize those that believe that criminals are abso…

> What it sounds like is that criminals are not absolved by serving their sentence. Or maybe some are but it depends on the crime? And sometimes it's okay to ostracize those that believe that criminals are absolved by serving their sentence, depending on the crime?

Sounds about right.

I'll add that it is difficult to forgive people who show no remorse for their crimes.

There are also certain crimes and evil actions that are hard to forgive, period. Sexual abuse, rape, and murder are all very hard to let go of (with very good reason), and even more so when the victims are children.

Epstein checks all those boxes, which is why even the people around him are so tainted by association.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#582

Post by anjc » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 12:44 PM UTC

nf8nnfufuu wrote: post #15

jakelazaroff wrote: post #3

Good. Here’s a particularly damning passage from Ronan Farrow’s New Yorker article [1]: > According to Swenson, Ito had informed Cohen that Epstein “never goes into any room without his two female ‘assistants,’ ” whom he wanted to bring to the meeting at the Media Lab. Swenson objected to this, too, and it was decided that the assistants would be allowed to accompany Epstein but would wait outside the meeting room. >…

Sorry, I don't get it. Somebody having assistants who look like models and are from Eastern Europe is suspicious of trafficking women? How? Why? I have heard about Epstein, obviously with hindsight all sorts of things he did can be seen in a new light. I just don't understand what is so damning about the passage above. Would somebody who is trafficking women really take them everywhere he goes? I thought it would be…

I'm with you. Posters here seem to be making several logical leaps due to hindsight bias. His previous convictions do not imply that he's a human trafficker, and if he was, he almost certainly would not be advertising it in this manner.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#583

Post by malandrew » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 12:46 PM UTC

nullc wrote: post #20

jpmattia wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taking money from a dirty source is one thing; hiding it from the university because they've blacklisted that person in particular is about as unforgivable a crime as you'll find in academia TBH, I've never heard of a blacklisted donor at MIT, so I'm a little surprised (pleasantly, as an alum).

I'm confused by the blacklisted donor thing. The first questions I had when reading about it was "when did he end up on this list?", "why did he end up on it?, and "how big is this list?" It doesn't seem like any of the journalists even asked. That sounds like a very interesting story in and of itself.

I’m also curious what eventbtranspired in the first place that lead to the creation of this list. What was the first name on this list, and why?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#584

Post by disturbinttruth » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 12:50 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #561

anon2947 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a few more of Xeni's tweets, and wanted to get HN's honest opinion on them. It seems (to me) like a lot of people on Twitter (and HN?) are over-reacting. For example, Xeni's pinned tweet references this other tweet ( https://twitter.com/xeni/status/1165266579560521728 ), which implies that anybody who was ever at a dinner with Epstein should be considered complicit in Epstein's crimes. Take this quote, for exa…

Marvin Minsky was directly named by one of the victims in documents that were published a couple of days before Epatein’s convenient death, and those documents were mentioning that Minsky had directly sexually profited from an under-age woman. In other words he was a paedophile. I submitted an article detailing all this stuff on the day of Epstein’s death, it had reached the top links of HN in less than an hour but t…

Marvin was not a pedophile but had pedophilic tendencies which amplified with epsteins influence

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#585

Post by disturbinttruth » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 12:51 PM UTC

meerita wrote: post #549

anon2947 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a few more of Xeni's tweets, and wanted to get HN's honest opinion on them. It seems (to me) like a lot of people on Twitter (and HN?) are over-reacting. For example, Xeni's pinned tweet references this other tweet ( https://twitter.com/xeni/status/1165266579560521728 ), which implies that anybody who was ever at a dinner with Epstein should be considered complicit in Epstein's crimes. Take this quote, for exa…

Yes, to my this is an excess of accusations.

It’s fact that Marvin Minsk’s was part of it

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#586

Post by jpster » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 12:53 PM UTC

arcticfox wrote: post #520

adventured wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NYT has very prominently been in ethical collapse mode for several years now. This is just another in a line of a dozen or so scandals surrounding their credibility, or rather, their no longer existent credibility. They're the biggest joke in mainstream news in the US right now and that's not an easy thing to accomplish while Fox News still exists. There is zero chance editors and journalists at the NYT resign ov…

Sources? I haven't heard of any of these scandals. And even this story could simply be the NYT failing to corroborate the more salacious accusations with more than one source yet, therefore not running them.

IDK about their ethical motivations, but they made serious errors in judgement.

They delayed publishing on Bush’s illegal surveillance because his admin asked them to. IIRC they had the opportunity to break this story before he was reelected and didn't.

See also Judith Miller’s botched reporting episodes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/bush-lets-us-spy...

https://www.salon.com/2015/07/30/the_new_york_times_humiliat...

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#587

Post by jakelazaroff » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 12:53 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #556

jakelazaroff wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned this to a similar comment elsewhere in the thread, but this is a weird horse to hitch your wagon to. Even if these particular women weren’t trafficked, the Media Lab staff’s general suspicions about Epstein were obviously correct.

They were suspicious because he was a known pedophile. That doesn't mean that anyone under his employ was being exploited. > this is a weird horse to hitch your wagon to. I'm not hitching my wagon to anything. This is basically arguing that as long as someone was bad enough, you can just make up or assume anything also bad about them, including the extent of their crimes. Did you know Hitler was a pedophile and necro…

They were suspicious because he was a known pedophile who prostituted young girls from Eastern Europe, who showed up with two young-looking girls from Eastern Europe. That’s not evidence, but it’s enough to arouse suspicion, which is the point.

The Hitler thing is a straw man; Hitler was not known for pedophilia or necrophilia. Epstein was already known for soliciting prostitution from underage girls who matched the profile of the ones he brought to the MIT Media Lab offices.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#588

Post by jakelazaroff » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 1:00 PM UTC

dennisgorelik wrote: post #513

jakelazaroff wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that's a very unfair framing of the issue. He invited Epstein over. Epstein brought his 'assistants'. It's still a question mark whether they were even prostitutes, let alone prostitutes operating in any sort of non-consensual capacity. What we have here is simply that someone at MIT speculated whether they were being trafficked. There is no evidence at all that their presence was anything other than consen…

What does "sex trafficked" mean? Is it prostitution? Sexual slavery? Why do you use such an unclear term in a discussion?

Is that really an important question? Is there an definition that would make it okay?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#589

Post by tw04 » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

nf8nnfufuu wrote: post #326

tw04 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's weird for a 60 year old dude to be traveling with unrelated women who are under the age of 18? Why are you so incredulous that people would assume the worst when the guy had a reputation and the girls looked way too young to be traveling the world with the sleazeball?

Paragraph said nothing about the girls being under 18. It says "young women". Also didn't say anything about his reputation (at the time the story took place).

So you made an account 8 days ago just to defend Epstein? Go do your pr somewhere else, that pedo is exactly where he should be.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#590

Post by CPLX » Sun, Sep 08, 2019, 1:11 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #222

tptacek wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an Epstein Absolutist and feel Ito should have resigned way before Ronan Farrow's article was published, so yes, I think this is all very shady. I don't generally think people have a moral right to hold on to prominent directorships like the MIT Media Lab --- when you take that job†, I think you also undertake an ethical obligation to leave that post as soon as it becomes reasonable to say that your continued pre…

> when you take that job†, I think you also undertake an ethical obligation to leave that post as soon as it becomes reasonable to say that your continued presence is a distraction or disruption from the mission of the organization While that's all well and good when it's an issue you agree with, would you be willing to apply that standard in the other direction? If Joi Ito had created a controversy by standing on pr…

> While that's all well and good when it's an issue you agree with, would you be willing to apply that standard in the other direction?

No.

We are not computer programs incapable of making judgements without relying on some arbitrary and sweeping generalization.

We can, in fact, distinguish between making a stand to support human rights or speak truth to power, say, and taking a stand to continue to engage with a convicted pedophile.