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The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

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Re: The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

#21

Post by jarrett »

orangecat wrote: post #9
foljs wrote: post #6

> But if we are to follow precedence set by other Apple products, the Mac will become more closed than ever, with the Web as our only option to access the outside world. Much like the iPhone and the iPad. As a Mac owner, the writing is on the wall, a closed computer is my future. Em, the "other Apple products" mentioned were never open to begin with. And they are not general purpose computers. The Mac, on the other h…

Em, the "other Apple products" mentioned were never open to begin with. Right, which indicates that Steve's preference is for closed systems. Every argument Apple makes in favor of locking down iOS devices applies equally well to Macs. And they are not general purpose computers. Only because of artificial limitations. I don't see a "closed computer" in the near future... I believe with 60% probability that by the end…

In my experience, developers are the most passionate group of evangelists for Apple products. Cutting root access from the Mac would make it unusable for many types of developers, if not all. I don't think Apple can afford to lose that base of customers and evangelists.

Re: The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

#22

Post by eagleeye2 »

Author here.

I am assuming the worst possible situation here. I do firmly believe that OS X will eventually be just like iOS, and we are seeing a lot the industry adopt methods that Apple has pursued previously. My worry is that Microsoft, if they happen to release an App Store themselves, will go down the same path. They have done this with WP7 and the Marketplace.

It's a slippery slope releasing an App Store IMO because I don't want to own a Mac that will eventually be locked down like the iPhone, and since that method will "most likely" still be a success, other companies, including MS, might be curious to adopt this.

Is an App Store bad? Hell no.

Is the way they are being implemented in our every day technology bad? Hell yes. Even on Android phones with AT&T you can't install from unknown sources. Granted, Android phones in this respect are not the norm, and thankfully so.

In short, let's all proceed with caution.

Re: The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

#23

Post by eagleeye2 »

pak wrote: post #3

Did he seriously write that entire article without bringing up Steam? Wake up and smell the coffee, Windows users: you've had an app store for seven years now, and its primary target (gamers) are actually pretty damn happy with it now. If they branched out and sold regular apps (not that they would, it seems too dilutive for the brand) you'd basically have a pretty competent Windows App Store. (I can see it now: "Ach…

Ya, I seriously did. Reason being is basically what you said actually. Their primary target is gamers, and it will probably stay just for gamers, and even if Microsoft releases their own store with games, it probably won't be better than Steam.

But that is also what makes me not bring up Steam. It is not an "app" store. It's a game store, and a very damn good one at that.

Re: The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

#24

Post by foljs »

orangecat wrote: post #9
foljs wrote: post #6

> But if we are to follow precedence set by other Apple products, the Mac will become more closed than ever, with the Web as our only option to access the outside world. Much like the iPhone and the iPad. As a Mac owner, the writing is on the wall, a closed computer is my future. Em, the "other Apple products" mentioned were never open to begin with. And they are not general purpose computers. The Mac, on the other h…

Em, the "other Apple products" mentioned were never open to begin with. Right, which indicates that Steve's preference is for closed systems. Every argument Apple makes in favor of locking down iOS devices applies equally well to Macs. And they are not general purpose computers. Only because of artificial limitations. I don't see a "closed computer" in the near future... I believe with 60% probability that by the end…

> Only because of artificial limitations.

No, because of a design tradeoff: ease of use and mind vs openess.

Apple would still get to sell their iOS devices and iTunes content even if they allowed shell access and arbitrary installation of programs on them.

>I believe with 60% probability that by the end of 2015, Apple won't sell any consumer-targeted products that allow root access or installation of arbitrary software.

2015? Not a chance. Although the industry WILL move towards more auto-managable OSs...

Re: The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

#25

Post by bradleyland »

Xuzz wrote: post #7

He makes a few good points: Linux has had this for years, and they have done quite a good job with it (especially with the Ubuntu Software Center). But, as he says: Linux only has 1% market share. Mac OS X has almost 10% market share. If Linux has used this concept to good effect for years, why is it a bad thing that it's now being exposed to a more mainstream computing audience?

The author is not afraid of an app store, he is afraid of a "closed" OS X. Closed being:

* Unable to install apps that aren't App Store Approved(TM)

* Unable to run commands as root

* Unable to access the filesystem

Basically, the author fears OS X becoming iOS.

There's a lot of speculation about what OS X will become, but there is only one sure bet: It will follow the money.

Consumers -- in general -- have been proven not to care about things like "open". If you ask Joe Blow Android owner about why he/she likes their phone, they might tell you that they like how it's "open", among other things, but I'd lay you odds that they don't know what that really means. And you can bet that most people are not rooting their Android phones.

I'm not talking about your friends. I'm talking about your mom's friends; your dad's friends; your cousins' friends. The ones who can't figure out how to update their anti-virus. They don't care about open, root access, or filesystems. They care about the specific task they want to achieve: to be entertained (music/movies), have some fun (games), do some work (productivity), or communicate with others (email/social networking).

These are the people that will drive the direction of OS X and Windows. But don't freak out just yet. There will always be another layer to the computing world. Apple builds a very small set of core iOS apps. A large part of iOS's success is owed to independent developers. Not big companies. Independents. The Mac has many popular independent developers, and Apple knows this. There will always be an "open" Mac, in the sense that there will always be a Mac you can develop on, if only by neccessity.

Let's consider what happens if I'm wrong. Even though we're (hackers) a tiny part of the market, we're not a "small" group by any measure. Imagine that all the talented people who like using OS X for development are suddenly forced to use Linux. So, you have this large group of talented people, and all of the sudden their platform is yanked out from under them. Where do they go? They go to the platform that solves their needs. They go to the next thing. That thing would be Linux.

I don't believe there will be any rug-yanking going on. I think the process will be much slower, and many won't even notice, but I do think we'll start to see more hackers moving to Linux as Apple develops their "walled garden" approach for OS X. That's not a bad thing. It's going to bring a lot of talent over to the Linux side of things, and that's gotta be a good thing.

Re: The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

#26

Post by pornel »

The closest thing Linux had to App Store was Lindows' Click-N-Run.

Typical Linux repositories, while very useful, don't address the important point — payment.

App Store is for commercial software, while Linux distros usually even put "non-free" software in separate silo.

Re: The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

#27

Post by StevenHodson »

eagleeye2 wrote: post #23
pak wrote: post #3

Did he seriously write that entire article without bringing up Steam? Wake up and smell the coffee, Windows users: you've had an app store for seven years now, and its primary target (gamers) are actually pretty damn happy with it now. If they branched out and sold regular apps (not that they would, it seems too dilutive for the brand) you'd basically have a pretty competent Windows App Store. (I can see it now: "Ach…

Ya, I seriously did. Reason being is basically what you said actually. Their primary target is gamers, and it will probably stay just for gamers, and even if Microsoft releases their own store with games, it probably won't be better than Steam. But that is also what makes me not bring up Steam. It is not an "app" store. It's a game store, and a very damn good one at that.

They do have their own store for games: Games for Windows - LIVE

Re: The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

#28

Post by Xuzz »

bradleyland wrote: post #25
Xuzz wrote: post #7

He makes a few good points: Linux has had this for years, and they have done quite a good job with it (especially with the Ubuntu Software Center). But, as he says: Linux only has 1% market share. Mac OS X has almost 10% market share. If Linux has used this concept to good effect for years, why is it a bad thing that it's now being exposed to a more mainstream computing audience?

The author is not afraid of an app store, he is afraid of a "closed" OS X. Closed being: * Unable to install apps that aren't App Store Approved(TM) * Unable to run commands as root * Unable to access the filesystem Basically, the author fears OS X becoming iOS. There's a lot of speculation about what OS X will become, but there is only one sure bet: It will follow the money. Consumers -- in general -- have been prov…

Unless it has a door out of the garden, like Android's "install unsigned apps" toggle. It's the best solution to this "issue", but so far only certain Android phones offer it (and all but the Nexus series are locked down in other ways).

If Apple could just hide a Jailbreak button under 10 pages of warnings in iTunes, this wouldn't be an issue. But they don't, so fear of a locked-down Mac is reasonable. But, as you conclude, that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Re: The Slippery Slope of an App Store, and Why Windows Should Never Adopt It

#30

Post by shinkansen »

eagleeye2 wrote: post #22

Author here. I am assuming the worst possible situation here. I do firmly believe that OS X will eventually be just like iOS, and we are seeing a lot the industry adopt methods that Apple has pursued previously. My worry is that Microsoft, if they happen to release an App Store themselves, will go down the same path. They have done this with WP7 and the Marketplace. It's a slippery slope releasing an App Store IMO be…

> I am assuming the worst possible situation here. I do firmly believe that OS X will eventually be just like iOS...

This will never happen. As others have already stated, Apple would lose their developers and because they don't command the market with OS X they would never risk doing that. Let's not forget the professionals that use Macs: the design industry, the film industry, the music industry: these rely in some cases on third-party applications like the Adobe Suite, these industries are another reason why OS X cannot ever become iOS; they require a fundamentally open, extensible environment. Add that to the fact Apple has stated that the App Store will never be the only method through which developers may publish their applications to the OS X platform, and it just will not happen.

Your paranoia is irrational.

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