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The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

theguardian.com

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Re: The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

#91

Post by bb88 »

loeg wrote: post #67
bb88 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So MIT should be able to accept money profited from Child Traffickers and Drug Cartels?

Reframed: No, MIT shouldn't knowingly give money to child traffickers and drug cartels. I don't understood the argument for non-politician organizations returning donations from problematic people. By keeping the money, you're enriching your organization, at expense to the bad person. Win-win for society. For politicians and political organizations, there is an implicit association with bribery, so in that case I can…

> Reframed: No, MIT shouldn't knowingly give money to child traffickers and drug cartels.

I think that just confuses the issue.

> For politicians and political organizations, there is an implicit association with bribery.

1. Alice accepts money from Bob

2. Alice discovers Bob is running a underage sex trafficking ring on the side.

3. Alice continues to accept money from Bob.

So let's ask the following questions:

1. Is Alice implicitly condoning underage sex trafficking by taking Bob's money?

2. Does Alice look like she's implicitly condoning underage sex trafficking by taking Bob's money?

3. How does the public know what the true motives of Alice are? Does she support underage sex trafficking or not?

4. How do we know if Alice is telling the truth as long as she accepts money from Bob?

5. How does this affect Alice's reputation? Would you go to Alice to seek help with trying to stop underage sex trafficking? Or has Alice been "tainted" with Bob's money?

Re: The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

#92

Post by loeg »

adamnemecek wrote: post #80
loeg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsubstantiated imperative sentences with no further context are not especially compelling arguments and do not meet the usual merit bar for comments on this site.

Why do you talk like this "the usual merit bar for comments on this site"?

I'm not a perfect writer and sometimes write unclearly; I made a good-faith attempt to express my thought. I am certainly open to learning better ways to phrase my ideas, if you have suggestions.

Re: The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

#93

Post by rowanG077 »

bradly wrote: post #71
rowanG077 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there actual proof of the government knowing about Epsteins actions and looking the other way because of his donations? I find that really hard to believe...

I do not know about the U.S. government, but at M.I.T. he had been already been banned from charitable giving, so Joichi was having to lie about the source of the money.

Yes and that is indeed a problem. Joichi was willfully going behind M.I.T.s back to get those donations. And that should be a reason to fire Joichi.

However that is completely separate from believing that blacklist to be valid. I don't think such a blacklist should exist at all. But it's not the call of the researcher itself to bypass it.

That has nothing to do with your original point which said that his donations allowed him to work as a sex trafficker.

Re: The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

#94

Post by lpolovets »

I thought the article, and especially the headline, were overgeneralizing and weak. I looked up the author, and he has such a strong anti-tech bias. His last 4 posts (from https://www.theguardian.com/profile/evgeny-morozov):

- The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

- Facebook's plan to break the global financial system

- It's not enough to break up Big Tech. We need to imagine a better alternative

- The left needs to get radical on big tech – moderate solutions won't cut it

Re: The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

#95

Post by human20190310 »

rowanG077 wrote: post #62
human20190310 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You think Epstein funding some research washes him of his past transgressions? No, but it helps him maintain his social standing, which was a key factor in the lenient sentence he got for his conviction. Connections were a form of insurance for Epstein.

Is there any proof to your claim?

The Washington Post did a piece on the unusual handling of Epstein's case, e.g. having his case reviewed at the highest level of the Justice Department in an attempt to overrule the Miami prosecutors:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/the-pressure-o...

Re: The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

#96

Post by AYBABTME »

anigbrowl wrote: post #61
AYBABTME wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the naive approach is to think that things are black and white, absolutely good or absolutely bad, and so on by mere association. Scientifically useful results from scientists that are awful humans are still useful results on their own. A donation to a University (assuming no strings attached) doesn't make the University wrong by association, despite a donator who's an awful entity. Governments collect taxes…

It does when you know the donor is awful and you conceal the origin of the donation.

How so? I think concealing the origin is the right thing especially if you know the person is awful and you don't want to reward them with reputation points.

Bottom line, I think a donation, an idea, a contribution is useful even if it comes from an awful source, but the problem lies in whether you reward/enable the source's awfulness. I think that's the argument to make, as opposed to just focusing on whether the source of funds was a morally acceptable person.

Re: The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

#97

Post by loeg »

marcinzm wrote: post #79
tomjakubowski wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can begin to talk about rehabilitating abhorrent people only after they've demonstrated some contrition for their actions and growth towards being better. By all accounts, Epstein showed none of that.

The comment I responded to did not mention Epstein in any way or form.

This is an article about Epstein, in a thread about Epstein, with a side-diversion to the Sackler family. In that context, bradly's question:

> You'd like to recognize a rapist for their charitable givings?

Is clearly referencing Epstein and returning the thread to discussion of Epstein instead of the Sackler family.

Re: The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

#98

Post by bb88 »

loeg wrote: post #72
bb88 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It does. Money changes minds. And if you believe it does not, I have $100,000 that says it will.

Where can I cash in on this $100,000?

See how easy it works? :) I haven't even given you the strings that are attached with the money.

Re: The Epstein scandal at MIT shows the moral bankruptcy of techno elites

#100

Post by sytelus »

BurningFrog wrote: post #24

"This single event shows how corrupt this class of people I already disliked is!" is the definition of how prejudice works.

For me, this event was insightful about the secret world of intellectual elites. We often think of these elites like Steven Pinker and Marvin Minsky working away in their damp offices in university campus and live sort of understated idealistic lifestyles. Instead, it appears there is this billionaire circuit which is equivalent of kings in modern days. They have their courts for intellectual kicks and show offs. They shuttle around these elites in private jets, have them vacation on private islands, put them on boards of companies, fund their ventures and so on. These intellectual elites are by no measure idealistic folks with idealistic middle class academic lifestyles but rather they are very rich and powerful with strong connection to billionaire circuit. It also appears that these folks have no qualms against their relationship with a person with severe ethical or moral issues as long as that person is billionaire. Probably all this is not very surprising and still just a sample size of one but it seems to be an interesting window on that world.
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