Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties • Hacker News Board

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#231

Post by coldtea » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

nf8nnfufuu wrote: post #213

coldtea wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you tell the difference between the sex-trafficked, forced-into-servitude eastern european model-assistants, and the eastern european models who see an opportunity to make a lot of money and a lot of connections, and take it? There's not much difference between the two camps, especially if the "models" are just teenage girls from some Eastern European village or pre-adult girls (as low as 14) from broken poo…

Some of the things you mention are different from the others (drugs, maybe lies). But overall, in my opinion you are taking away too much agency from the women. It is too easy to blame somebody's actions on "manipulation". That would be a wildcard to accuse anybody of anything you want.

Some of the "women" (including some who testified) were 14 year old at the time, and a majority below 18.

He once jocked for a 17 year old that "she is getting too old for me".

The girls were scouted and selected by a group of trusted aides "from troubled backgrounds, either in the foster care system, from broken families, or below the poverty line"...

Not sure how much 'agency' we should give them.

These are not really women going with some boyfriend or merely a young girl with a much older guy. E.g. I'm OK with Louis CK asking to masturbate, and then doing it when the women said yes (I don't consider their "yes" to be any kind of manipulation, rich or not, powerful or not, they could always say no).

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#232

Post by nullc » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #137

nullc wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how that happens, like what would have caused them to take notice and add him to a list? In part, I wonder if it has any connection to Gregory Benford's description of Minsky's interaction with Epstein: https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/

I'm just spitballing here, but if someone is involved in delivering millions of dollars' worth of donations to you, it would be reasonable to perform a basic background check on them, just to guard against huge potential PR problems. I doubt that they do the same over, say, $500 donations from random people, but once you're into the millions of dollars, you really need to know who you're dealing with. Background chec…

Hi. According to MIT Epstein donated ~800k over 20 years, looking into a sudden large donor makes sense, but AFAIK there wouldn't have been anything to find 20 years ago.

Certainly possible, but it would be interesting to understand the timeline and reasons. The "keep this donation anonymous" would take on an entirely different meaning if it was prior to the prohibition, for example.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#233

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

nf8nnfufuu wrote: post #15

jakelazaroff wrote: post #3

Good. Here’s a particularly damning passage from Ronan Farrow’s New Yorker article [1]: > According to Swenson, Ito had informed Cohen that Epstein “never goes into any room without his two female ‘assistants,’ ” whom he wanted to bring to the meeting at the Media Lab. Swenson objected to this, too, and it was decided that the assistants would be allowed to accompany Epstein but would wait outside the meeting room. >…

Sorry, I don't get it. Somebody having assistants who look like models and are from Eastern Europe is suspicious of trafficking women? How? Why? I have heard about Epstein, obviously with hindsight all sorts of things he did can be seen in a new light. I just don't understand what is so damning about the passage above. Would somebody who is trafficking women really take them everywhere he goes? I thought it would be…

[deleted]

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#234

Post by liability » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

nf8nnfufuu wrote: post #207

liability wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree with the notion that this is something you need to personally witness to recognize. The dynamics involved in an old rich man surrounding himself with very young women are not something that requires much life experience at all to pick up on. The people who are blind to it are probably willfully blind, not naive. (Excepting young children of course.)

In general, old rich men have no special powers over young women. It seems conceivable that usually, they choose to be around him of their own free will. Otherwise, please explain what special powers old rich men would have over young women.

When the subject of discussion is a man known to be involved in human trafficking, being so trusting and naive does not a lick of good.

You seem to be repeatedly ignoring the context of Epstein's criminal conviction.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#235

Post by prepend » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

nf8nnfufuu wrote: post #229

prepend wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I play this game as well but call it “daughter or prostitute.” It’s pretty common to see old dudes with young women. I’ve rarely been able to actually find the answer. The few times I’ve gone to fancy resorts or expensive areas, I’ve always seen couples like this. Only a few times did I see more than one woman. I worked for a ceo once who always had a much younger (25 vs 65) assistant in the building. I don’t think I…

If you have rarely been able to actually find the answer, why do you assume prostitute? Sounds rather misogynist to me.

I’m not sure how it’s misogynist. It’s a people watching activity that’s just a pastime. Similar to trying to tell narratives about people sitting near us in a cafe. Just because I’ll never know if someone really is a traveling archaeologist smuggling artifacts doesn’t mean I don’t derive pleasure in thinking through the thought.

In the particular game of “prostitute or daughter” (also sometimes prostitute or son, although much less common) we try to pick apart clues that might inform the guess. Places we’ve seen them. Actions toward each other. Actions when apart. Etc etc.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#236

Post by tomp » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #21

frankwiles wrote: post #5

Jesus. Who lets a guy get away with that for so freaking long?

Most people would if it’s normalized. Not long ago Saudi Arabian money and PRC money was just fine. It’s hard not to take it when it’s about survival.

The problem isn’t “taking Saudi money”, the problem is “giving Saudis equity” (i.e. influence and potential future profits). Donations solve this.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#237

Post by currymj » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

the HN comments on all the recent Epstein stories have been very strange.

I have to assume at least some of the more contrarian views are coming from people who haven't been following the full story in the US news, and so don't quite grasp the nature of the allegations. The case is far from just "some rich guy turned out to be an abuser".

If you can't understand why the reaction is so strong against those who maintained ties with Epstein, it's worth looking into the full story, perhaps starting with the Miami Herald's "Perversion of Justice" story last year.

https://www.miamiherald.com/topics/jeffrey-epstein

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#238

Post by nf8nnfufuu » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

liability wrote: post #69

nexuist wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone works from the same knowledge base. OP could have heard about Epstein in passing, per se, and not known about his extensive criminal history or previous arrest/trial. I only know about these things from Reddit posters and not much else. There is probably a whole host of information you and I do not know about him; it's important to be aware of your blind spots but also the blind spots of others.

Well in assuming good faith I assume he read the article, which should have cleared up any such misunderstandings...

I've read about the first half, which didn't mention that Epstein was already convicted for sex trafficking by the time he arrived at MIT in that story.

It didn't occur to me that he would be walking around freely doing deals if he had already been convicted.

I didn't have the information that he was let off the hook and there was also no indication I should google for something like that. What search term should I have used?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#239

Post by nemothekid » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

matz1 wrote: post #204

nemothekid wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes Child trafficking normal is if the law enforcement doesn't do anything. I am trying to understand all the mental hoops you are going through right now to write that sentence in the midst of marijuana legalization right now. From "reefer madness" to now, the accepting of marijuana came directly from people working with, socializing with and being exposed to people smoking weed despite the fact that law en…

In regards with marijuana, more and more people disagree that it should be illegal therefore its harder and harder for law enforcement to prevent it. With child trafficking, very rarely people want it to be legal. >Hanging out with child trafficker, and accepting money from them and inviting them to your private events is normalization Yes, it is normalization. The normalization of hanging out with child trafficker a…

Your marijuana point makes no sense. Now your logic is circular --

1. Normilization is when the police stop enforcing something

2. More and more people started to disagree with the legal status of marijuana

3. It became hard for police to enforce drug laws.

You are now arguing that step 3 is normalization. What do you call step 2? I think most would agree that step 2 is normalization, and its effect is step 3. If step 2 is not normalization, then what is it?

Remember - people truly believed marijuana caused people to murder and rape people all the way back in the 30s. In terms of public perception, it wasn't too far from child trafficking.

>Note that is different than the normalization of child trafficking itself.

It's not - you cannot remove those two. You can take parallels to how LGBTQ are portrayed in media. People credit Modern Family - which featured a homosexual couple - as normalizing homosexuals in our society, but you are making the claim that is"only normalizing homosexuals on tv." Thats ridiculous - the two are inexorably linked. It's not what happened.

It showed people that if you are gay, you no longer have to live in hiding, that people will accept you, and you can live this "happy sitcom" life.

If I am a child trafficker, and I see this guy Epstein shaking hands and kissing babies with a top academic, how is that not sending the message that "hey we know you kidnap kids, but we don't mind, come to our dinner"? Isn't that normalization?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#240

Post by coldtea » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

nf8nnfufuu wrote: post #207

liability wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree with the notion that this is something you need to personally witness to recognize. The dynamics involved in an old rich man surrounding himself with very young women are not something that requires much life experience at all to pick up on. The people who are blind to it are probably willfully blind, not naive. (Excepting young children of course.)

In general, old rich men have no special powers over young women. It seems conceivable that usually, they choose to be around him of their own free will. Otherwise, please explain what special powers old rich men would have over young women.

>Otherwise, please explain what special powers old rich men would have over young women.

The power that comes from being rich, well connected, parading powerful friends (even judges, politicians, financiers, and so on), aides, bodyguards, the means to have them beaten or killed if you want to, and so on? The power to get them fired from their jobs? The powerful to do "Eyes Wide Shut" level shit to them and them knowing it?

Or you expected some magical power that applies to every old rich person in any situation between them and a young woman?