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India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

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Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#101
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post has "false dichotomy" written all over it. Of course, space exploration is an international endeavor and most space missions are highly international. Planning international space exploration missions doesn't force anyone to give up their nation, just as global trade does not imply that. Moreover, if mankind ever expands into space, it would be rather naive to think that earth's nations would play a role th…

> It would take maybe a hundred years or so for space colonies to declare their independence. To think that in one hundred years any outer space colony will be self sufficient compared to whatever is produced and available on Earth is highly unlikely even in our wildest dreams now. We have literally no pathway for complete self sustainability on other planets in sight, and as long as this remains true space colonies…

There already exist successful sovereign states that have no pathway to self-sustainability at a modern level of living due to lack of food or oil production.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#102
post #10
post #7

It's a good effort by ISRO and it's scientist. Just can't understand why so many countries reinventing the wheels. Space missions should be multi-country efforts continuously as it belongs to all. We should not extend our tribal nationalistic thinking to space. Best scientist can be in any nation and more diverse the group and experience the better chances of success. I know I am just dreaming, but hopefully we can c…

No. We’re different groups of people with different interests, different values, different ideas principles cultures histories views of the world. It’s good for us to be competing to explore space (and in trying to develop technological advantages in general). For countries like India it’s critical to develop their own technologies on this front. Otherwise they’ll remain eternally dependent on America, etc., for acce…

India is not culturally homogeneous (and no, I’m not just talking about the situation with Kashmir here).

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying that rest of the anti-Modi folks wanted this mission to fail? That's somewhat sad. ISRO is funded by the Government and PM heads the Department of Sapce. So, what did you expect him to do? Nod off and go to sleep. It's actually good to have a PM who stands by country's scientists even at the time of failure(and not just at the time of success).

No, I am not implying that. Read the GP comment. He was asking if that might be the case. You see PM standing by the ISRO (regardless of the outcome of mission) and I see a PM doing drama for PR exercise. Otherwise he doesn't care a bit about science or education. He doesn't even know the difference between Chandragupta Maurya and Chandragupta Vikramaditya. He thinks Takshashila was in Bihar. He has the audacity of t…

> You see PM standing by the ISRO (regardless of the outcome of mission) and I see a PM doing drama for PR exercise. Otherwise he doesn't care a bit about science or education.

Okay. So for you, presence of the PM at an event(with significant probability of failure) which involved tremendous amount of nation's prowess(scientific as well as non-scientific) and that too by the department which directly falls under him is a PR exercise.

Thanks for clarifying. Spared me reading rest of the irrelevant detail which probably has nothing to do with Space.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#104
I'm for space programs, but India is one of the poorest countries on earth, and spending that kind of money on social programs would actually have an impact on it's population.

And then it looks like it failed on top of that, which is honestly not surprising, since space programs are so sensitive to minor quality issues and quality is the hardest thing for a 3rd world country.

If I was living in India and struggling to get by I couldn't help question why this was a priority at all, national ego?

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#105
post #81

It seems it was supposed to be a polar landing, which should be harder (I think) than landing from an equatorial arrival Nonetheless, this is rocket science and failures are very common and not unexpected. Too bad, but it happens.

Why would landing from a polar orbit be harder?

I’m no expert but doing polar landing would involve a plane change maneuver after you arrive in moon orbit (or some clever orbital mechanics to minimize delta-v losses and somehow do it in a single burn (both capture and plane change).

Apart from that, I’d presume theres also complexity of the landing site not being directly visible from earth, necessitating re-transmissions from the orbiter.

Not something that hasn’t been done before by any chance, but still harder than say USSR’s lunokhod missions.

Though this is mostly coming from my Kerbal Space Program experience.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#106
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. We’re different groups of people with different interests, different values, different ideas principles cultures histories views of the world. It’s good for us to be competing to explore space (and in trying to develop technological advantages in general). For countries like India it’s critical to develop their own technologies on this front. Otherwise they’ll remain eternally dependent on America, etc., for acce…

This is the kind of fractious factionalist junk that is designed to stoke terrestrial xenophobic fears. Anecdotally I have traveled and met folks abroad as well as interacted with many immigrants domestically, at the end of the day I think it’s safe to say the basic nature of being hunt leads to us all having more in common than not. Now governments being divisive for short sighted power grabs? Sure, but don’t say it…

I completely agree with you, but I also think you cannot hand wave away the small differences. Islam is such a perfect example of this. Sunni and Shia Muslims have been literally killing each other for about 1400 years now. Why? One side believes that Mohammed's father-in-law should have been his successor, the other side believes that his son-in-law should have been his successor. Their fundamental views and values are identical. There are some derivative differences in the value they give to various supplementary texts to the Koran, but all in all - they are still pretty much the same. Certainly near identical compared to any outsider. Yet that difference is enough to justify thousands of years of murder.

People don't tolerate differences well, even when they think they do. For instance how would you like a representative population of the US in your neighborhood and work? People tend to think about things like this in terms of colors instead of views and values. That'd mean, among other things, that of every person who voted in your work/neighbor, more than 46% would have voted for Trump.

Ultimately I think politicians are reflections of the people rather than their directors. Did Abraham Lincoln end slavery, or had the public mind changed in such a way that the election of a figurative Lincoln was inevitable, even if by a different name? So too in modern times. It's not like America was just cheery before 2016. Ever since the normalization of the internet we've been becoming extremely divided. And so it's only natural that our politicians would in turn end up being ever more divisive.

Think about the migration debate. It's not about things like trying to determine what a sustainable level of migration is, or its longterm economic and social impacts. Instead one side wants to build a wall and block migration as much as possible while the other side is dog whistling for open borders and literally suggesting free medical care and other benefits for people who enter illegally. Both sides are basically just trolling each other, and I think that's a reflection of what we the people are doing to one another. And of course this is not just intra-America. See, for instance, the huge rise of 白左 / baizuo. People view things through difference lenses, even when we do have nearly everything in common.

Maybe that is even actually the real point. The more you have in common, the less of a difference you need to create a meaningful divide. When you disagree on many things, one more disagreement isn't really changing your relationship much. When you agree on nearly everything, one irreconcilable disagreement is suddenly a big deal.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#107

I'm for space programs, but India is one of the poorest countries on earth, and spending that kind of money on social programs would actually have an impact on it's population. And then it looks like it failed on top of that, which is honestly not surprising, since space programs are so sensitive to minor quality issues and quality is the hardest thing for a 3rd world country. If I was living in India and struggling…

The budget is tiny compared to national welfare schemes. India's remote sensing satellites have helped countless farmers as well. Not to mention the inspiration it gives to future generations.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#108

I read that the maximum experiments are in the orbiter so this is a successful mission. The only thing for which it 'failed' was to let the ruling class do chest thumping by saying 'we are the fourth country to land a rover'. The ruling party had planned a great celebration today for it's 100 days in office, a date coinciding when the rover would land! They wanted to milk it for their nationalistic purposes while the…

The ruling class stood by the nation's scientists at the time of failure, which is not a norm in India. But again, I've seen people who hate Modi/BJP "celebrating" ISRO's failure on social media. So, this comment wasn't exactly surprising.

No one has not stood by the scientists. That would be an incredibly stupid move.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#109

I'm for space programs, but India is one of the poorest countries on earth, and spending that kind of money on social programs would actually have an impact on it's population. And then it looks like it failed on top of that, which is honestly not surprising, since space programs are so sensitive to minor quality issues and quality is the hardest thing for a 3rd world country. If I was living in India and struggling…

Every country with a space program has its issues and underfunded social welfare programs. This should not stand in the way of innovation. Having indigenously developed space technology offers India a unique strategic advantage especially when it's achievements have come at a fraction of the cost of other programs (Mangalyaan for example).

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you are unnecessarily making this political GP is just highlighting that India's ruling party made this unnecessarily political. I'm not sure why it's being downvoted when it's factually accurate and is interesting in the context of the discussion. This is exactly the same thing that was going on in the Soviet Union where space project schedules were dictated by key party dates and celebrations. Not sure if…

> GP is just highlighting that India's ruling party made this unnecessarily political. I'm not sure why it's being downvoted when it's factually accurate and is interesting in the context of the discussion. Could you share some citations to justify your comment? There is no evidence out there that Chandrayaan was politicized by the Government. ISRO is funded by the Government and Department of Space directly comes un…

Why should there be something distracting on launch day ?
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