How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets • Hacker News Board

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#51

Post by fl0wenol » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 6:28 AM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #38

rdtsc wrote: post #32

> “Some of our people were out of control in those days,” Colby said. “They went too far. There were problems of supervision and administration.” That was in 1975 talking about the events in the 1950s. There is this idea that, well CIA might have gone a bit too far, but it was a long time ago. Hiring Nazi scientists, feeding people drugs, murdering, overthrowing governments, conducting torture sessions. That was in t…

> Today they just sit at their desks and type reports like nice little bored bureaucrats. What if they are just as evil and brutal today and we just don't know about it. Just throwing this out here, but what if it's both. They, like every other nation in the world, are evil and brutal, and the vast majority of them are just sitting at desks somewhere doing fairly mundane jobs. That's just the nature of a modern intel…

The trend has been to push the crazy research stuff into the private sector or universities and fund it through intermediaries / grants.

Not just the IC but in general.

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#52

Post by tony » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 6:39 AM UTC

They were psychiatrists from the 1950's. It was around the time the first antipsychotic was introduced and people naively believed psychiatry was this miracle. There are chemicals that make people impressionable, they're administered at hospitals and available in liquor stores.

IMO the most interesting (and impactful, powerful) stuff is just plain-old psychology, like what is read in therapy books. You can apply it in nearly any situation in so many ways.

It adds on to intuition you'd feel normally, the really complicated social behaviors we act out on into concepts and frameworks. You can choose how you interpret and use it.

If you don't believe me, google: Dialectical behavior therapy, attachment theory, schema therapy with "filetype: pdf" in the query and load em into PDF reader. Kindle has good books.

Schema Therapy: https://www.guilford.com/excerpts/young.pdf

Attachment theory: https://www.behaviorology.org/oldsite/pdf/AttachmentTheoryBe...

I'm trying to spread the message far and wide so people can know and get woke. This is stuff I wish I knew 15 years ago.

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#53

Post by cheez » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 7:11 AM UTC

trhway wrote: post #47

cheez wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda makes you think about all the shooters "known to federal authorities" recently.

speaking about famous shooters, the MKULTRA doctors just happened to be around: https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/dec/19/mkruby/ "After he shot Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby’s psychosis was diagnosed by the same CIA doctor who had once killed an elephant with psychedelics" The same doctor happened to be around in the context of Charles Manson too : https://longreads.com/2019/06/27/a-manson-murder-investigati…

Sheesh, that is terrifying...

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#54

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 8:16 AM UTC

DoctorOetker wrote: post #40

farah7 wrote: post #36

I was honestly quite shocked whilst reading this, CIA operated facilities use to kill and test chemical weapons on volunteer soldiers? damn.

thats a good point: the fact that testing on a volunteer soldier and on army and CIA researchers, seems to suggest they wanted to compare effectiveness with the general population, since random members from the population might not be psychologically representative for foreign soldiers, secret clearance'd scientists and spies. So from this perspective testing on people of similar function / caliber from your own acce…

[deleted]

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#55

Post by farah7 » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 8:17 AM UTC

DoctorOetker wrote: post #40

farah7 wrote: post #36

I was honestly quite shocked whilst reading this, CIA operated facilities use to kill and test chemical weapons on volunteer soldiers? damn.

thats a good point: the fact that testing on a volunteer soldier and on army and CIA researchers, seems to suggest they wanted to compare effectiveness with the general population, since random members from the population might not be psychologically representative for foreign soldiers, secret clearance'd scientists and spies. So from this perspective testing on people of similar function / caliber from your own acce…

Something tells me keeping statistical integrity wasn't a major factor in testing on these soldiers. i think soldiers just tend to be better test subjects for these purposes as they are more obedient, willing to sacrifice their lives for a bigger cause, take instruction without asking too many questions, keep secrets and no doubt they have more mental fortitude and a higher pain threshold to withstand multiple rounds of various chemical attacks.

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#56

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 8:26 AM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #33

rixed wrote: post #22

Interesting how the article turns a story of mass torture and killings akin to nazy mad-science into a story about one individual murder. Makes one wonder why would a state research mind control from drugs, when mind control from history books and newspapers is already so efficient.

Maybe mind control from history books or whatever is not as efficient as you're thinking it is? Just speculating that if I was a military commander, yeah, I'd go for saturating a place with drugs to keep the people there from planting IED's way before I would trust history books to do so. Just strikes me as way more reliable. If history is any indication, using history books to get people to behave decently doesn't s…

[deleted]

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#57

Post by DoctorOetker » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 8:31 AM UTC

farah7 wrote: post #55

DoctorOetker wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thats a good point: the fact that testing on a volunteer soldier and on army and CIA researchers, seems to suggest they wanted to compare effectiveness with the general population, since random members from the population might not be psychologically representative for foreign soldiers, secret clearance'd scientists and spies. So from this perspective testing on people of similar function / caliber from your own acce…

Something tells me keeping statistical integrity wasn't a major factor in testing on these soldiers. i think soldiers just tend to be better test subjects for these purposes as they are more obedient, willing to sacrifice their lives for a bigger cause, take instruction without asking too many questions, keep secrets and no doubt they have more mental fortitude and a higher pain threshold to withstand multiple rounds…

that only explains experimentation on the now dead soldier in Britain, not on the army and CIA scientists, researchers, agents described though.

if both occured I seek the shortest explanation that explains the most observations

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#58

Post by Fnoord » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 8:43 AM UTC

cairo_x wrote: post #43

"He was one of several special operations division scientists who were in France on 16 August 1951, when an entire French village, Pont-Saint-Esprit, was mysteriously seized by mass hysteria and violent delirium" Big if true. The book doesn't come out till October. I wonder if this is the only circumstantial evidence they have? If they can place him in the actual village, that would be something.

I just wanted to point out that entire villages mysteriously being seized by mass hysteria and violent delirium happened due to at least other factors as well. Case in point: ergotism [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergotism

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#59

Post by fit2rule » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 8:57 AM UTC

rixed wrote: post #22

Interesting how the article turns a story of mass torture and killings akin to nazy mad-science into a story about one individual murder. Makes one wonder why would a state research mind control from drugs, when mind control from history books and newspapers is already so efficient.

The CIA is the Nazi's fourth reich. They escaped Europe, found themselves with new resources in America's military-industrial complex, and have been fucking shit up around the world ever since. There are many in the world who believe we're still fighting Nazi policies, only its the USA this time around, doing the implementing.

And its hard to disagree that secret torture chambers (like, literally, thousands of them) being operated by shadowy figures who are not accountable to anyone is anything less than a total usurpation of the founding principles of the USA ..

Re: How a deadly fall revealed CIA secrets

#60

Post by fit2rule » Sat, Sep 07, 2019, 9:01 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #32

> “Some of our people were out of control in those days,” Colby said. “They went too far. There were problems of supervision and administration.” That was in 1975 talking about the events in the 1950s. There is this idea that, well CIA might have gone a bit too far, but it was a long time ago. Hiring Nazi scientists, feeding people drugs, murdering, overthrowing governments, conducting torture sessions. That was in t…

>What if they are just as evil and brutal today and we just don't know about it.

Pay attention to America's illegal wars, and the nature of the innocent victims.

Yes, these wars are evil and brutal. That is why the American people are kept un-informed about them.

But if you peek beneath the propaganda you will find the ugly truth: the people of the USA have been hoodwinked into letting their military-industrial complex ruin civilisation around the world.