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Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

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Re: Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

#71

Post by toast0 »

GeekyBear wrote: post #66
lacker wrote: post #35

This article doesn't quite explain what's going on as much as I would like, so maybe I can add some more detail. The key problem from an app developer's point of view is that the iOS push notification API doesn't just let a server send an encrypted blob of data to a user's app, and have the app handle it locally, deciding whether it needs to display a notification to the user. What the iOS push notification API does…

When the user is not running the app, what is the use case for the app waking up and processing data that is not an incoming message to be delivered to the user? Facebook was using the VOIP framework to burn so much power after the user had quit the app that you would see articles pointing out that deleting the Facebook app could double the battery life of the device. >Deleting This 1 App Can Literally Double Your Ph…

From my perspective, everything you want to see in the app when you next open it, should be transfered to your phone when you have network access; because you might not have access when you open the app. There's lots of things that fit in there -- read receipts, group changes, profile photo changes, contacts that join or leave the network.

Not user visible (mostly), but still important are things like end to end key changes and key cycling related to group changes.

Disclaimer: I used to work for a messaging company.

Re: Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

#72

Post by cromwellian »

jakear wrote: post #15
cromwellian wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also used Life360 to geofence my kids and get notifications when they leave school and return home. It actually caught my son running away from school one time, and when the guidance counselor couldn't find him, I was able to locate him outside the school wandering around the streets.

Not a parent, but a recent kid, and I’d hate my parents having that kind of control over me. Though I guess I’d just turn off the phone. Which then makes me even more unreachable than if the tracking had never been instituted in the first place.

If you have a kid who is being monitored for depression and in therapy, it is a totally different story, and the monitoring is completely transparent, my son is not unaware of it, in fact, he specifically has an agreement not to disable location permissions for that app.

Re: Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

#73

Post by cromwellian »

gnicholas wrote: post #27
cromwellian wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also used Life360 to geofence my kids and get notifications when they leave school and return home. It actually caught my son running away from school one time, and when the guidance counselor couldn't find him, I was able to locate him outside the school wandering around the streets.

Isn’t this possible with Apple’s Find Friends functionality? EDIT: downvote because why?

I didn't downvote you, but Find Friends doesn't geo-fence. So unless I'm actively tracking him, I won't know.

I only want to be notified if he leaves the school premises during school hours, I don't want to micromanage his location otherwise.

Re: Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

#74

Post by cromwellian »

facethrowaway wrote: post #24
cromwellian wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also used Life360 to geofence my kids and get notifications when they leave school and return home. It actually caught my son running away from school one time, and when the guidance counselor couldn't find him, I was able to locate him outside the school wandering around the streets.

Sometimes I forget that this is a community full of engineers, many of whom have poor social skills. Invest less time in apps and more time in trying to understand your kids.

My son and I have a fantastically close relationship, we talk about everything, including deeply negative feelings. But unless you know how anxiety panic attacks work, don't make comments like this.

Regardless of the relationship and understanding I have with my kids, being triggered at school to ditch it from a panic attack is not a rational understanding.

It is precisely because my son and I have a good relationship, that we can come to an agreement that he needs outside supervision and monitoring.

I attend group therapy seminars with trouble teens. Some of them have been the victim of serious abuse, like revenge porn by peers on campus. This is not something "social skills" solve.

Your own comment to me suggests you lack the very social skills you claim others lack.

Re: Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

#75

Post by mapmap »

EGreg wrote: post #56
lacker wrote: post #35

This article doesn't quite explain what's going on as much as I would like, so maybe I can add some more detail. The key problem from an app developer's point of view is that the iOS push notification API doesn't just let a server send an encrypted blob of data to a user's app, and have the app handle it locally, deciding whether it needs to display a notification to the user. What the iOS push notification API does…

I am a developer of a messaging app downloaded so far by 5 million users around the world. I was very concerned about this news and looked into it. Apple is simply doing away with silent push notifications through the VoIP API. Apps can still register an extension that will process arbitrary push notifications that result in a visible notification to the user. If the application needs to silently send something to th…

Regarding your last paragraph, it's actually more severe:

Eventually the silent push notifications (content-available: 1) will not be delivered to the app at all. They are throttled by how much energy the app uses when launching in response.

Send too many or do too much with each one, and you'll find iOS no longer launches the app. The limits are not documented.

The maddening part is everything will work fine while you're developing and have your phone plugged in to power. You'll only notice this on battery power.

Re: Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

#77

Post by pdimitar »

toast0 wrote: post #71
GeekyBear wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the user is not running the app, what is the use case for the app waking up and processing data that is not an incoming message to be delivered to the user? Facebook was using the VOIP framework to burn so much power after the user had quit the app that you would see articles pointing out that deleting the Facebook app could double the battery life of the device. >Deleting This 1 App Can Literally Double Your Ph…

From my perspective, everything you want to see in the app when you next open it, should be transfered to your phone when you have network access; because you might not have access when you open the app. There's lots of things that fit in there -- read receipts, group changes, profile photo changes, contacts that join or leave the network. Not user visible (mostly), but still important are things like end to end key…

Disagreed.

I don't want apps working in the background. If I want to see what changed in an app, I'll open it and I expect it to request the changes then and only then. If I have no network then I'll see no changes. Easy.

Your perspective is very foreign to me and definitely seems hostile to the battery life of my device.

Re: Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

#78

Post by whycombagator »

lacker wrote: post #35

This article doesn't quite explain what's going on as much as I would like, so maybe I can add some more detail. The key problem from an app developer's point of view is that the iOS push notification API doesn't just let a server send an encrypted blob of data to a user's app, and have the app handle it locally, deciding whether it needs to display a notification to the user. What the iOS push notification API does…

> will weaken the privacy that apps like Signal can offer, not improve it, because Signal will have to know a little bit more about your messaging behavior in order to send you push notifications.

If privacy will truly be compromised then there's always the option to not support push notifications.

Re: Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

#79

Post by lacker »

GeekyBear wrote: post #66
lacker wrote: post #35

This article doesn't quite explain what's going on as much as I would like, so maybe I can add some more detail. The key problem from an app developer's point of view is that the iOS push notification API doesn't just let a server send an encrypted blob of data to a user's app, and have the app handle it locally, deciding whether it needs to display a notification to the user. What the iOS push notification API does…

When the user is not running the app, what is the use case for the app waking up and processing data that is not an incoming message to be delivered to the user? Facebook was using the VOIP framework to burn so much power after the user had quit the app that you would see articles pointing out that deleting the Facebook app could double the battery life of the device. >Deleting This 1 App Can Literally Double Your Ph…

The use case here is to keep it private when exactly you are receiving a message. The push API requires that the server know when data indicates a user-visible message and when it does not, and the maximally private messaging app server wouldn’t need to know that.

There is certainly a trade off between privacy and battery life here. If Apple stated that they were sacrificing a small bit of privacy for improved battery life, I would find their communications honest on this issue. Since their messaging is typically so pro-privacy, they probably have just fallen into the habit of claiming every change enhances privacy even when it isn’t.

Re: Apple Change Causes Scramble Among Private Messaging App Makers

#80

Post by lacker »

vonseel wrote: post #76

If you were building an app that needs to do something like this in the background today, what is the recommended approach if you're on a platform like React-Native? Can JS even be reliably executed in the background?

For the vast majority of cases it’s better to just use the Apple push notification API and not try to keep a background process running constantly.
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