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A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

awealthofcommonsense.com

61–70 of 200 posts

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#61
> Yes, index investors are free riders, but this is the way most markets work. We don’t go to the grocery store to bid on prices of oranges against one another to set an equilibrium. The market does that for us.

Actually, our behavior does shape the price of oranges. If we go to the store and they're less expensive, then we are more likely to buy them. The analogy breaks down because he's comparing indexes and oranges, not stock indexes and food indexes. Imagine if 14% of people went to the grocery, picked up a sack of pre-selected items that were best sellers last week -- all in the name of efficiency and reducing overhead. That would be quite weird indeed, and some people would point out that if enough people did this it would create market inefficiencies and potentially cause a glut or crash of certain food prices.

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#62

The "this time is different" crowd rides again. Burry highlighted two simple truths of financial markets: people will buy shit they don't understand, and people who make financial products will try to earn a liquidity premium by transforming something illiquid to something liquid (which always blows up). Most people (who I have met) who own passives have no idea what they are buying but are sure that buying passives…

I hate this kind of smart-ass top-level "ITT" comment that paints an entire discussion happening besides it with broad strokes.

If only one person does this I can call him names and downvote him. If there are two camps and both camps do this, people tribalize and everything goes meta. Then no further actual discussion can take place.

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#63
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The article, starting with the title, is pompous and overconfident. Burry made the unanswered point that in a sell-off large index funds will have to dump their smaller holdings at large discounts. We have never had a market crash with passive holdings this large (and consolidated in a small handful of funds)-- we're in unprecedented times. Burry's point is entirely plausible. And although that it wouldn't i…

> Burry made the unanswered point that in a sell-off large index funds will have to dump their smaller holdings at large discounts. First, I think he didn't made that point very clearly. Second, why would they be sold at a larger discount than larger holdings? It is all in proportion - they own less and sell less of the smaller holdings. (There are issues conceivable where you have a liquidity mismatch (bonds, real e…

> why would they be sold at a larger discount than larger holdings? It is all in proportion - they own less and sell less of the smaller holdings

His argument there AIUI was that the daily volume is not in proportion.

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#64
post #22
post #2

I think this article really misses the point that Burry was making, which is that if the indexs see a sell off they won't find the liquidity in the market to cash out their positions and will drive the market down. This article seems to focus on all of the upsides of indexing, which are all true. However, those upsides don't negate the risk that is being pointed to.

These sections seem to address the point to me: * "The tail is not wagging the dog" - index funds are a relatively small percentage of total share ownership. * "Benchmark huggers have always been around" - owning ~the index was not started with index funds. * "Active funds literally own the market" - the sum of portfolios of non-index funds ends up having the same profile. * "Price discovery is a cop-out" - relativel…

> "Liquidity is not a huge problem for index funds" -no market impact to sell (v dubious if you ask me), unlevered.

If you're talking about index mutual funds, then the author is just plain wrong. Any open-ended fund offering daily liquidity will trade, and therefore produce market impact, to meet its daily redemptions.

If you're only talking about ETFs, then this is technically correct. Besides the occasional index re-constitution, unlevered index ETFs don't do any trading. However it's definitely not true that there's no market impact. As the fund grows (or shrinks) the shares just don't magically appear in the portfolio. Somebody has to go out and buy (or sell) those shares, and like any trading volume, that creates market impact.

The mechanism that ETFs actually use is something called "Authorized Participants" (or APs for short). Basically market makers have the right to create or redeem shares in the ETF. To create new shares, they go out and buy all the stocks in the index, then hand a basket over to the ETF fund manager, who then hands back new shares of the equivalent value. And to destroy shares, the AP hand over shares in the ETF, and the fund manager hands back a basket of shares from the index.

If there's high demand for investors to own the ETF, that'll push up the ETF's stock price. As the price rises relative to the index value, APs will detect an arbitrage opportunity. They'll go out and buy the basket of stocks in the index at a cheaper price, then create new ETF shares at the richer price, and pocket the difference. Vice versa if there's demand from investors to exit the ETF.

The mechanism keeps the ETF price closely pegged to the index, because the further out of line it gets the more arbitrageur activity pushes it back in line. While also flexibly satisfying investors' specific demand for the ETF at any given time. Basically it delegates the role of trading from the fund manager, who usually doesn't have any special expertise in trading, to highly specialized trading firms and market makers.

However, as you can clearly see, market impact most definitely exists. If a flurry of investors rush to enter or exit an ETF, then a huge amount of trading has to be done to create or redeem the shares. Just because the APs create this trading impact, instead of the fund itself, is a distinction without a difference. The underlying stocks in the index are subject to market impact.

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#65
post #42
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The S&P 500 is basically a group of largest established 500 market cap stocks traded in the US proportioned to market cap. There is no active management determining price and weights here.

I don't think so. Otherwise Uber and Snap would both be in the S&P 500.

There are certain criteria, see [1] or [2] for a summary. They need to be publicly traded for sufficient time, have sufficient free float, be profitable, etc.

See [3] for example on why Tesla isn't.

[1] https://us.spindices.com/documents/methodologies/methodology...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26P_500_Index#Selection_cr...

[3] https://seekingalpha.com/article/4088016-will-tesla-join-s-a...

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. The most popular index funds physically invest their capital in the stocks making up the index: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/101415/4-best-...

That wasn't what the Article being critiqued said though.

Correct. There are index mutual funds and index etfs. The article seemed to refer the latter.

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#67

The "this time is different" crowd rides again. Burry highlighted two simple truths of financial markets: people will buy shit they don't understand, and people who make financial products will try to earn a liquidity premium by transforming something illiquid to something liquid (which always blows up). Most people (who I have met) who own passives have no idea what they are buying but are sure that buying passives…

"Most people (who I have met) who own passives have no idea what they are buying but are sure that buying passives makes them very smart. This blows up every time."

I can't say about the first part, but economically speaking, they are very smart. The alternatives are higher fees and lower results.

"Simply, going from 0 to $300m+ earns you that right. Very few people have achieved that."

You mean the guy who explicitly wants to raise the price of small caps (which conveniently have low volumes)?

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#68

> Yes, index investors are free riders, but this is the way most markets work. We don’t go to the grocery store to bid on prices of oranges against one another to set an equilibrium. The market does that for us. Actually, our behavior does shape the price of oranges. If we go to the store and they're less expensive, then we are more likely to buy them. The analogy breaks down because he's comparing indexes and orange…

People more or less do do that. I've often searched for something on Amazon and bought the most popular result.

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The article, starting with the title, is pompous and overconfident. Burry made the unanswered point that in a sell-off large index funds will have to dump their smaller holdings at large discounts. We have never had a market crash with passive holdings this large (and consolidated in a small handful of funds)-- we're in unprecedented times. Burry's point is entirely plausible. And although that it wouldn't i…

The title is terrible. The fundamental problem he seems to be pointing at is that notional replicating portfolios can work like an engineering marvel in good times and become inoperable in bad (liquidity) times. There were many elements to the CDO crisis -- including bad faith by the rating agencies and a prolonged asset-price mania much beyond this stock-market rally. The simpler metaphor is the emission of vanilla…

> The fundamental problem he seems to be pointing at is that notional replicating portfolios can work like an engineering marvel in good times and become inoperable in bad (liquidity) times.

He is confused. That was the problem with the synthetic OTC instruments that he used which nearly tripped his winning position because no one wanted to actually trade with them. And even that was largely the case because he was buying not even CDOs but synthetic instruments that were derivatives of the CDOs.

Index funds on the other hand own the shares in companies that publicly trade where the market markers must provide liquidity hence a single trade at +/- 10% will not only move the quote but would trigger other buyers and sellers to decide to want to play.

Re: A critique of the claim that passive investing is a bubble

#70
As others have noted, there's a lot here that isn't relevant to Burry's argument, but this seems like the key rebuttal to me:

Active funds literally own the market. When you buy an index fund of the total stock market, you are literally buying the stock market in proportion to the shares held by all active investors. If you sum up the collective holdings of active managers, what you basically get is a market-cap-weighted index. Index fund investors are simply buying what the active investors have laid out for them.

I don't have the knowledge to evaluate this statement, but to me, it undermines Burry's point that passive investing distorts prices.

And this bit that he quotes from someone else expands on the point:

The use of price signals by those who played no role in setting them may be capitalism’s most important feature. That most of us and most of our dollars don’t have to pick stocks, or to price air conditioners, is a great benefit and taking advantage of it makes us honest smart capitalists, not commissars.

As I understand it, Burry's argument is that index funds distort prices because capital is being allocated in an automated and uniform way, instead of being allocated according to the expertise of a diverse, success-weighted group of investors who are motivated to make intelligent and informed decisions. At some point the difference between the index-fund-driven prices and the "true" prices according to informed opinion will become obvious, and investors will attempt to flee index funds, popping the bubble. The rebuttal in this argument is that active investors are still controlling the market because index funds mirror their activity. We will never reach a state where people will rush to "escape" from the index funds to actively managed funds, because index funds will always approximate the aggregate opinion of the actively managed funds.

This accords with my naive idea of how index funds work, but I don't know if they actually do work that way, so I can't evaluate the soundness of either argument.

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