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Inequality in Equalland

daemonology.net

91–100 of 139 posts

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#91
post #87
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been many studies for a long time (several decades) which show that as far as environment matters, what matters is not so much money, but what is called in sociology "cultural capital" (not sure it is the right expression in English). For example, in France (but I guess in other countries as well), children from teachers succeed much better than children from workers, even though income is not so much diffe…

I suppose the counter point is that teachers are 'underpaid' for their intelligence, when compared to workers. There is probably an element of that since teaching is vocational and most people entering the profession do so in the knowledge that they will not earn as much. Hence we should not be surprised that their children do better - for both cultural and genetic reasons (50-50?). The original point was about acade…

I think discussion about IQ, genetics and co are mostly meaningless for various reasons: the issue is extremely loaded politically, which means it is difficult to discuss about it with people who has a different opinion, and the science around it is inconclusive at best (the nature or even the reality of flynn effect is still debated, for example).

This is not to say it is not interesting, but I would put it in the same camp as discussion around religion: it is possible to discuss about it, but almost impossible to do it in a reasonable manner with random people in the internet. That's why I refuse to discuss it as a matter of principle in most cases with people I don't know personally.

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#92
post #24
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is a terrible motivator? lol. What's this nonsense? Give me your name and address, I'll write you a check for $1500 free and clear to take back what you just said.

Did I say that money provided no motivation at all? People perform better when they're doing what they love. At a very minimum, money is a terrible motivator when it's the only form of motivation a person has as the person I was responding to seemed to suggest. And for the record, nobody paid me to write that comment in the first place.

That depends on how much money you have. If you are well taken care of then yeah money is a poor motivator. If you are in real need then money becomes quite the motivator(If only as a proxy for those other needs.) Most of the crime around the world is solely driven by the need to acquire wealth by means easier, quicker than legally possible. Crime seems to be doing quite well for itself even with the serious consequences for breaking the law.

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#93
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do I care if 1% of the population have 99% of the > wealth if there are no consequences to it? I certainly > don’t want to reduce inequality out of spite. You might want reduce it because the lowest x% don't have enough to eat. Share the cake.

This is not necessary in the US or most other industrialized nations - our bottom x% tends to eat too much, not to little.

The poor don't eat too much compared to the middle class and the wealthy. The poor eat the wrong kinds of foods, because the wrong kinds of food are inexpensive.

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#94
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original article said: Is there too much inequality in the world? Sure. And cperciva reiterated that opinion above. That's what drunkpotato is disagreeing with. It is clearly an opinion that isn't purely a matter of facts and figures. (One with which, as I happen, I agree.)

I don't think drunkpotato is disagreeing with that at all. He's supporting someone that states that wealth disparity is not a good thing.

Whoops, yes, I got that backwards. Anyway, the point is that what he's agreeing and disagreeing with are opinions that aren't just a matter of unambiguous facts and figures.

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#95
post #56
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everyone agrees that some wealth disparity is a good and necessary part of a healthy economy." Nope.

Why? Do you think that success should also be uniformly distributed amongst the entire population? I'd say reward people who are successful. The fact is the majority of people aren't successful or really very useful to society. The top 1% of society do most of the work, so they get most of the reward. That's pretty fair IMHO. Human motivation requires that success be rewarded. If there is no success, or "success equa…

Good lord, how did a post like that get an upvote? It's ignorant well beyond the point of normally being considered a troll post.

>The fact is the majority of people aren't successful or really very useful to society.

That's an insanely arrogant thing to say, not to mention complete garbage. The only reason we even have a society at all is because of that majority you dismiss. They are the ones who spend the money, do the mundane jobs that the top 1% can't be bothered to and so on.

>The top 1% of society do most of the work, so they get most of the reward. That's pretty fair IMHO.

Wtf? Citations? Actually I'm not sure what kind of citation could possibly be provided to demonstrate such a statement was anything but full retard. How do you define "work"? Obviously not manual labor. I will venture a guess that you must be talking about CEO's, but there is no metric you could name that you can't find people lower on the food chain who outwork any CEO on.

>Human motivation requires that success be rewarded.

More Rush Limbaugh-esque nonsense. Rewards take many different forms. A college professor might take reward in the results of his research, even though he'll never be compensated like e.g. Larry Ellison who some would qualify as a blot on the IT industry.

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#96
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do I care if 1% of the population have 99% of the > wealth if there are no consequences to it? I certainly > don’t want to reduce inequality out of spite. You might want reduce it because the lowest x% don't have enough to eat. Share the cake.

What part of 'if there are no consequences to it' did you glance over?

But what is the point of such a line of discussion? If there are no consequences then of course no one would care. The whole reason such a thing is discussed is because there are indeed very real consequences.

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#97
This is a good point if you make the assumption that people tend to accumulate wealth as they age as a rule. I think this is likely, but it has not been established as a general proposition.

The shapes of individual "wealth curves" will not necessarily be identical. Here are a few examples to consider:

- A person who is raised in a middle-class home, and has basically the life story in the blog post will have a curve similar to that one.

- A person who is raised in a poor home, is unable to afford college even with loans, and makes a few bad economic decisions early on, though not so bad that he cannot pay for them, will have a similar-looking debt event, followed by little change for the rest of his life.

- A person who is raised in a wealthy home, goes to college without needing loans, and is taught from an early age the value of savings and investment will have a much steeper exponential curve, and a much flatter "retirement decline".

- A person who is raised in a poor home, is unable to afford college even with loans, and makes catastrophic economic decisions will likely either declare bankruptcy or end up in prison. Either event resets wealth accumulation to an unspecified negative value (to account for the stigma and reduced access to various opportunities), yielding a significantly different curve.

- A person who is raised in a rich home, with a trust fund, but whose trust fund was invested in real estate and Bernie Madoff.

- A person living the Equalland scenario encounters a catastrophic financial event at some point (illness, crime, failure of an over-leveraged investment such as a home) and is driven considerably into debt. Servicing that debt will require either a significant portion of income thereafter or bankruptcy.

- A person living the Equalland scenario, except that his chosen field of education is overproduced in his generation, will have a similar curve to the fourth scenario above. The education debt does not necessarily produce benefits thereafter.

I do think the Equalland scenario is likely to be most common, but I recognize that my suspicions are likely influenced by the fact that it is the most common scenario amongst my peers. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that it is the overwhelmingly most common scenario in general, especially with so many different scenarios resulting in a net wealth loss over the course of a person's life.

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#98
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everyone agrees that some wealth disparity is a good and necessary part of a healthy economy." Nope.

Capitalism, and the income inequality it causes, has proven itself time and again as the most efficient organizing principle to create wealth. You may not like that but I don't think there is any way around that fact. If you want to go to a less efficient organizing principle you will have to accept that there will be less wealth. If history is any guide the people who will suffer the most from there being less wealt…

>Capitalism, and the income inequality it causes, has proven itself time and again as the most efficient organizing principle to create wealth.

Bizarre statement. Compared to what? Primitive cultures that didn't have money? At what do you mean by "wealth"? Fiat currency (in which case Mugabe has been the most successful)? Accumulated toys and gadgets?

Because if you're talking about anything else you're talking about capitalist countries. Sweden is capitalist, as in Denmark (despite both having over 50% tax rates). Hell, so is "communist" China.

The question is just how much regulation they use and where, but make no mistake: they are all capitalist systems.

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#99
post #6

I would like to live in Equal-land, I could live there, slouch around, work the absolute minimum and avoid work, and enjoy exactly the same benefits as those working the hardest to maintain that utopia.

I believe that was the promise of communism - which failed due to most people's inherent desire to be better than others or to excel. Also, people realized that they could/should do the absolute minimum, as there was no benefit for working harder. They did end up adding incentives (in the USSR) which started looking more and more like capitalism.

Ugh. The reasons Russia's communism failed is an incredibly complicated and still debated subject. Throwing it all to "people's inherent desire to be better than others or to excel" is completely wrong.

Re: Inequality in Equalland

#100
post #8
post #7

According to Wikipedia, 87% of the wealth belongs to the wealthiest 20%. However over 80% of that wealth belongs to the top half of that group. The figures I am looking at do not break it down farther, but my understanding is that this same relative relationship holds for the top 5%, 2%, 1%, and so on. Everyone agrees that some wealth disparity is a good and necessary part of a healthy economy. But there is a lot mor…

"Everyone agrees that some wealth disparity is a good and necessary part of a healthy economy." Nope.

There's a difference between equality of wealth and equality of opportunity.

Genuine equality of opportunity is unequivocally something to be desired and should be the ultimate goal of any society.

Equality of wealth cannot and should not happen, because people are different. Enforcing equal wealth means limiting opportunity for those who want to take advantage of it. I would argue that this is a fundamental fact of human nature: even in a ideal communist or utopian system where there is no money, wealth would just take the form of respect and influence.

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