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Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

latimes.com

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Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#91

Post by toomuchtodo »

kevingadd wrote: post #90
toomuchtodo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Model S and X owner here. Autopilot will nag you after so many seconds (depending on vehicle speed and autopilot path planning confidence) if it doesn’t detect steering wheel torque, and if you ignore the nags, it brings the vehicle to a stop safely with the hazards on. Car and Driver tested AEB in several vehicles (Tesla, Toyota, Subaru) and they are all pretty equally bad at it. Figuring out if matter in front of y…

How do you reconcile this with the claims in the accident report that the hands-off alert intervals are measured in minutes for the accident scenario? Quoted here with link to full source: https://twitter.com/vogon/status/1169358625220882432 Visual indicator after 2 minutes of no detected driver-applied torque to the steering wheel (apparently because they only detect torque - i.e. turning/steering motions - and not…

I can’t speak to their vehicle, but we run the latest software revisions on both of ours (both 2018 builds, Autopilot hardware version 2.5), and nag delay has never been more than 10-15 seconds apart if I’m not applying sufficient torque. I have not experienced nags taking a minute to be realized (even in rush hour traffic with no curves and slow speeds).

The safety system is robust IMHO. If I push the accelerator pedal while autopilot is running, immediate nag. Running at 89 mph (max speed before Autopilot locks you out for the duration of the drive due to too high of a speed)? Nags every 5-10 seconds.

It’s not perfect by any means, but it also expects a responsible, aware driver behind the wheel.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#92

Post by seanmcdirmid »

chrisseaton wrote: post #30
c3534l wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to stay attentive behind the wheel is to actually be the one driving. There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. If a driver can't check their email or whatever on their phone while autopilot is on, then autopilot is not safe to put in cars. And while I'm okay with not-exactly-safe for most things people willingly consume or use, driving is not an area where it…

> There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. How do aircraft pilots manage it?

Aircraft on most kinds autopilots crash into mountains without any intervention. They are mostly completely blind.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#93

Post by greglindahl »

akira2501 wrote: post #89
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except humans crash into stationary vehicles in lane all the damn time. Most highway pile ups are a simple crash lots of folks drive into the back of. Why's it hard? A vehicle coming from a side road has a lot of movement within your field of vision. When driving on a highway we're well used to the fact and expectation that stuff isn't stopped. When the vehicle ahead emergency brakes or stops you have the growth of s…

> Why's it hard? That humans get distracted and often make mistakes is no surprise, it should also be obvious that the amount of risky behavior is correlated to the amount of _perceived_ risk in any given situation, which is probably why so many are "a simple crash." It is, however, somewhat scary that a machine that has nothing else to do other than to drive the car as safely as possible still makes these "dumb" mis…

Adaptive cruise control makes dumb mistakes.

Cruise control makes dumb mistakes.

I know people who think automatic transmissions makes people worse drivers.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#94

Post by AndrewBissell »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #67
NickM wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is an apples-to-oranges comparison because AP is only used on highways where traffic incidents are already far less common per mile driven. True, and that kind of flawed argument bugs me. However, there is also data that showed that accident rates went down significantly on the same cars after Tesla first enabled autopilot via a software update. This is much more compelling to me; if the same people driving the sa…

This sounds interesting. Are you able to remember where you might have read this?

I assume he's referring to the NHTSA study which was released on the last day of the Obama administration and purported to show a 40% reduction in crash rates. It's still the highest search result on HN for "Tesla Autopilot."

That study was later shown to have employed sketchy data and egregiously flawed methodology. A deeper dive showed that the crash rates may have actually gone up with Autopilot. HN discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19127613

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#95

Post by AndrewBissell »

dahfizz wrote: post #79
matt-attack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only highlights how incredibly dumb these autopilots are. They’re incredibly diligent but completely fail at the necessary skill of understanding . What is the point of any of this if the car with all of its sensors knowingly plows into a stationary red 30-ton obstacle. It’s something that a 4 year old human would understand instantly as an object to be avoided at all cost. I really think folks don’t realize how c…

This is completely ridiculous. Adults drive into stationary objects all the time. 4 year olds walk into stationary objects all the time. As far as I'm concerned, there is only one criterion that matters when evaluating self driving cars: is it better than human drivers? The fact that we are still discussing this _one_ accident that happened _a year ago_ indicates to me that the answer is a resounding yes.

There are many Tesla Autopilot accidents under investigation, and their relative infrequency is due to the fact that a.) accidents themselves are rare, and b.) Autopilot (mercifully) has yet to see widespread deployment in the U.S. vehicle fleet.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#96

Post by matt-attack »

dahfizz wrote: post #79
matt-attack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only highlights how incredibly dumb these autopilots are. They’re incredibly diligent but completely fail at the necessary skill of understanding . What is the point of any of this if the car with all of its sensors knowingly plows into a stationary red 30-ton obstacle. It’s something that a 4 year old human would understand instantly as an object to be avoided at all cost. I really think folks don’t realize how c…

This is completely ridiculous. Adults drive into stationary objects all the time. 4 year olds walk into stationary objects all the time. As far as I'm concerned, there is only one criterion that matters when evaluating self driving cars: is it better than human drivers? The fact that we are still discussing this _one_ accident that happened _a year ago_ indicates to me that the answer is a resounding yes.

> Adults drive into stationary objects all the time

I agree. But do they when alert and focused and when they clearly see the object? I highly doubt it.

This Tesla was all of those things, and still crashed.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#97

Post by mhermher »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #9

Fire truck driver here: People crash into parked fire trucks and ambulances and cop cars all the damn time . That's why we park the Big Red Truck at an angle behind the accident -- so that when the 2-ton car crashes into the 30-ton truck, the car will bounce off and the people behind the truck (us) won't be injured. I don't disagree that Tesla's software is partly to blame here, but the null experiment also has a lou…

Of course the top comment is apologia.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#98

Post by smogcutter »

bg24 wrote: post #65
dreamcompiler wrote: post #9

Fire truck driver here: People crash into parked fire trucks and ambulances and cop cars all the damn time . That's why we park the Big Red Truck at an angle behind the accident -- so that when the 2-ton car crashes into the 30-ton truck, the car will bounce off and the people behind the truck (us) won't be injured. I don't disagree that Tesla's software is partly to blame here, but the null experiment also has a lou…

I was going at 30-40mph in the right lane on a 4-lane all empty highway, when a gentleman flies at 60-70mph and hits us right behind, goes 360 turn with us and we hit the wall. Everyone survived without any medical incident (other than that I do panic and respectfully avoid those fliers now-a-days). Relevant because: - I hope my sprinter (size of mini truck, with upfittings) had an autopilot in the front/rear to spee…

This... sounds like it’s on you. If this is in the US, the “flier” is going the normal speed of the road, and you’re driving dangerously slowly.

It’s hard to tell that something directly in front of you is approaching. It’s just not something our brains are good at, compared to detecting lateral movement. Especially when it’s so unexpected. One of the first things they tell you in motorcycle safety class is that “constant bearing, decreasing range” situations are extremely dangerous.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#99

Post by toast0 »

dahfizz wrote: post #79
matt-attack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only highlights how incredibly dumb these autopilots are. They’re incredibly diligent but completely fail at the necessary skill of understanding . What is the point of any of this if the car with all of its sensors knowingly plows into a stationary red 30-ton obstacle. It’s something that a 4 year old human would understand instantly as an object to be avoided at all cost. I really think folks don’t realize how c…

This is completely ridiculous. Adults drive into stationary objects all the time. 4 year olds walk into stationary objects all the time. As far as I'm concerned, there is only one criterion that matters when evaluating self driving cars: is it better than human drivers? The fact that we are still discussing this _one_ accident that happened _a year ago_ indicates to me that the answer is a resounding yes.

Well, we could also talk about the time the Tesla accelerated into a gore point when the lead car followed the lane to the overpass. Or the couple of times the Tesla drove into a semi trailer. Or the several other stationary emergency vehicles they've hit. At least the semi's were moving.

We don't really know how well the Tesla automation does vs human drivers, because the statistics are complex, and Tesla only gives us deceptive summaries.

The capabilities that Tesla cars have aren't that much different than other luxury cars, but the other manufacturers don't have NTSB investigations, because their marketing isn't convincing people the car can drive itself.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#100

Post by aidenn0 »

matt-attack wrote: post #96
dahfizz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely ridiculous. Adults drive into stationary objects all the time. 4 year olds walk into stationary objects all the time. As far as I'm concerned, there is only one criterion that matters when evaluating self driving cars: is it better than human drivers? The fact that we are still discussing this _one_ accident that happened _a year ago_ indicates to me that the answer is a resounding yes.

> Adults drive into stationary objects all the time I agree. But do they when alert and focused and when they clearly see the object? I highly doubt it. This Tesla was all of those things, and still crashed.

That's a non-sequitur unless the average driver the autopilot is replacing is alert and focused.
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