Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

scmp.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 348 posts

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#221

Post by dbcurtis »

y2kenny wrote: post #199
phantomathkg wrote: post #174

Don't believe in her word yet. Her word is "move a motion" when the Legislative Council resume in October, and the Security Minister, John Lee Ka-Chiu, submit the withdrawal to LegCo. At that point, the pro-Beijing LegCo member can reject such motion and continue the third reading of the bill and Beijing win. The other possibility is where we, the Hongkonger, continue demanding the rest of the four major demands, and…

This is another fake move by Carrie Lam. A withdraw only requires a simple declaration and not a motion that require a vote. https://thestandnews.com/politics/林鄭連扮讓步都要違反程序-仲有面講法治/

Link is Chinese. Just FYI to other non-Chinese readers.

What are the LegCo rules of procedure around this? Is there something we can read in English translation?

Whether or not a motion is required seems a major point.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#222

Post by spacehunt »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #212
spacehunt wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rioting involves violence and I don't see the government budge on that No it doesn't. It's ridiculously easy to be charged for rioting. Here's the legal definition: http://www.hklii.hk/eng/hk/legis/ord/245/s19.html

"breach of the peace"... Considering that the legal system is descended from the British system (and actually this law dates from British rule), this means: " when a person reasonably believes harm will be caused, or is likely to be caused, to a person or in his presence to his property, or a person is in fear of being harmed through an assault, affray, riot, unlawful assembly, or some other form of disturbance " [1]…

Read it more closely.

- Violence doesn't have to be actually carried out.

- Once a "breach of peace" is declared, everyone in the general vicinty can be charged with rioting.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#223

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tony wrote: post #167
odiroot wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To my surprise I found Sun Yat-sen is still revered in China. He was one of the most important figures that helped to end the Qing Dynasty. Of course he's revered by communists.

But Sun Yat-Sen is the founder of Kuomintang, an adversary to the communist party. He's revered in TW too. Doesn't that imply legitimacy to the three principles?

The two parties weren’t antagonistic until after Sun’s death, Sun was an avid socialist even if Chiang Kai Shek wasn’t.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#224

Post by baybal2 »

AFascistWorld wrote: post #21

The whole world is in for a seismic shift, not just HK. Xi used the word "struggle (斗争)" 58 times in his speech yesterday at the Central Party School. http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm - Another important thing is the collapse of Chinese pork industry due to African swine fever, unlike other monoculture diseases such as mad cow and banana Panama disease, it has no cure and prevention, it's doo…

I like to spend time "deciphering" the extremely carefully worded, and innuendo ridden press releases of the central government. Much of a riddle, add to that I am not a native speaker.

Internal edicts of the government leak all the time, but they also not far from official PR. Officials themselves have to decipher party's esoteric slang.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#225

Post by incognition »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #133
nailer wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong needs people in the PRC to start demanding their own representation. The CCP has might, but not enough to take on the Chinese people a second time. You can't be a people's republic if the people didn't vote for you.

Is this sarcasm? While no authoritarian government can exist with no consent of the government, the PRC has no legal vehicle for citizens to disagree with the state.

Well to paraphase, governments are people too.. most middle class folks in China are nominally CCP members themselves.. operationally CCP maps to a corporation in org chart then a democracy of course..

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#226

Post by dannyw »

dragonsh wrote: post #80
anvandare wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change. Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power to ensure there's never any real threat to their position. "Just lie down while I stomp your neck. Don't resist. We'll discuss your objections later, at a more convenient time." All political power emanates from the barrel of a gun. All civil power emanates from the people's latent threat to rev…

> Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power A non-violent protestor is a person who does not fear anything, and the person who doesn't fear is the most powerful one. Violence is a result of fear, that's the reason need to use weapons and aids to fight back to increase the chances of survival. A true warrior is a fearless person who respond to violence with non-violence and make violent person ashamed…

This sounds like a naive dream.

Connection with the universe does not change political structures.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#227

Post by mattdeboard »

lacker wrote: post #194
BurningFrog wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolutions don't produce democracies.

One counterexample is the American Revolution.

The American Revolution produced a slave state. There might have been voting among landed gentry but it was not anything I'd call democracy in 2019

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#228

Post by CalRobert »

claudiawerner wrote: post #213
i_am_proteus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this sarcasm? While no authoritarian government can exist with no consent of the government, the PRC has no legal vehicle for citizens to disagree with the state.

Although it's nothing like China, by what means can the average citizen in the UK, for example, raise an issue if their representative is of another party? Example: I care about issue x, but the people I live around don't. So I create a petition on the parliament petition website. Just like every other petition to date (to my knowledge) no change comes about because of it. How can I, as an individual citizen, disagre…

You can run for office. Of course, you need to convince enough other people to agree with you.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#229

Post by gdhbcc »

icebraining wrote: post #192
BurningFrog wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolutions don't produce democracies.

I disagree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution

That was an utter and complete failure in every sense of the word. And in any case the reasons behind it had nothing to do with a desire for democracy

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#230

Post by mytailorisrich »

spacehunt wrote: post #222
mytailorisrich wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"breach of the peace"... Considering that the legal system is descended from the British system (and actually this law dates from British rule), this means: " when a person reasonably believes harm will be caused, or is likely to be caused, to a person or in his presence to his property, or a person is in fear of being harmed through an assault, affray, riot, unlawful assembly, or some other form of disturbance " [1]…

Read it more closely. - Violence doesn't have to be actually carried out. - Once a "breach of peace" is declared, everyone in the general vicinty can be charged with rioting.

In general, behaviour that is threatening enough to cause alarm is considered violent. This what this law says, which is fairly standard.

If you take part in a riot/violent protest you may be charged with a criminal offence.

This is the way it works in most countries, including the UK. There is nothing extraordinary there.

Being arrested or even charged is also not the same as being convicted.

Note that the definition also includes unlawful assembly, so the people involved would already be in the wrong.

I think some people are trying a bit too hard to excuse violent protests as if HK was somehow a special case.

Post reply on HN