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I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

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Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#71

Post by bluedevil2k »

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #51
bluedevil2k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What??? Maybe in Silicon Valley, but everywhere else in the US if you’re a programmer you’re in the top 25% incomes locally, probably higher. In Austin, a good front end dev and you’re living in pretty much any neighborhood you want.

But at what cost? It sounds nice to be in the top 25% but if the conditions are unsustainable, it won't matter.

That's a rather bleak outlook on life. And nonsense. If you get a nice job in Austin for $120k, you can buy a house in a nice neighborhood, let your wife stay at home with the 3 kids, own 2 cars, take vacations. And it's been that way for the last 20 years I've been here.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#72

Post by turk73 »

grecy wrote: post #49

I went through exactly the same thing. I love the coding aspect. I love using my brain, solving problems, working with intelligent people. I can't handle sitting inside for 50 hours a week, and I can't handle business politics and nonsense. So I quit my Software Engineering job and took 2 years to drive from Alaska to Argentina, having the time of my life. [1] Then I worked for a bit again to save money, and quit aga…

That's great, but I have two kids and I don't get how people just up and leave their job to do things that earn little to no money? Thanks for keeping the dream alive, but for the most part I just don't know what else to do to make money.

In 2017 I tried to 'retire' from SW Dev and basically what I found out is that pretty much all the other jobs I qualify for are $15/hr nothing burger bs that don't pay the bills. Without going back to school and spending a fortune on retraining, there's no way out of this shit for me. I'd be willing to re-train for something else, but I'm 46, I already have an MS and a PhD, and even with re-training I'd be in some $25/hr job doing workaday crap in a worse field with less vacation and worse benefits. Same shit, different day, so I guess I'll stay a little longer and suck up the horrible people and horrible politics. My kids aren't going to be developers, no fucking way.

I can fully understand why seemingly rational, successful people go nuts, pop off, and end up hurting innocent people. Not that I would do that, mind you, but I certainly do understand why. This country just drives people insane.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#73

Post by vgoh1 »

This article makes me feel a little better about my life decisions. I started programming at age 12, but as my major I chose mechanical engineering because at the time, there was a lot of talk about the US software industry crashing and it all going to India.

I'm not going to try to portray mechanical engineering as all roses - the pay is a bit lower, and the chances of becoming a break-out rock start are much lower (think of the capital investment needed to build your own business). But the work weeks are a true 40 hours for at least 90% of weeks in most places, the work is much more varied (office, shop, lab, travel), and mechanical engineers with grey hair don't seem to have problems finding a job.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#74

Post by patd »

Isinlor wrote: post #40
fuball63 wrote: post #21

One thing that the article doesn't touch on is how a passion for software craftsmanship can be completely undermined by the recklessness of business decisions. I love the experience of writing and using rock solid programs, but in the real world, there are deadlines to meet, flaky requirements, and tech debt. For people in it for the money, it doesn't affect them. For people that appreciated good software, it turns t…

This is how most chefs lives look like. They prepare the same meals from a menu under time pressure years after years. Maybe it's not flipping burgers in fast food, but there is little space for artisanship in the food industry. You have to be really good to do more than prepare the same thing over and over from a menu.

But in most restaurants, the chef will chose which item to put on the menu, no ? They may repeat themselves every day but they get to change the menu from time to time.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#75

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

zaphar wrote: post #53
durnygbur wrote: post #42

> It’s really hard to celebrate “women’s day” with free feminist speakers when I just found out some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more. Please stop this. STOP. If "a man" is paid 20% less, they're expected to change job and ask 20% more at the new one. This is what is expected of "men".

If a manager lowballs an offer for a woman because they think they can get away with it then that manager deserves to be condemned for it. Fullstop. That behavior only indicates a lack of respect for the individual. If you work for a manager who does that then you should question whether they have any respect for their employees including you. A developer has so many options that there is rarely a good reason to work…

Does a manager deserve to be condemned if he lowballs a man, because he thinks he can get away with it?

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#76

Post by turk73 »

dctoedt wrote: post #58

By no means should we ever stop trying to improve working conditions for all, but we should also keep in mind that throughout history, most workers haven't had the luxury of being able to feed their families by doing fun- or personally-fulfilling work. At least we don't have to wrestle a heavy plow behind a balky ox or mule for hours on end in hot, humid weather (to give just one example).

Everyone up to my Grandfather was a farmer, all the way back as far recorded history goes--farmers. My Grandpa left the farm and had a string of utterly failed businesses. He should have stayed on the farm because that land is now worth millions of dollars, but no, he sold that farm for a song to buy his first restaurant which quickly failed.

As far as your assertion, just because people had it worse in the past doesn't prevent me from complaining about the utter dissonance by which I live my life. I just put a smile on every day and be an Fortune 500 drone, but honestly, I pray for revolution every single day.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#77

Post by wolfgke »

grecy wrote: post #49

I went through exactly the same thing. I love the coding aspect. I love using my brain, solving problems, working with intelligent people. I can't handle sitting inside for 50 hours a week, and I can't handle business politics and nonsense. So I quit my Software Engineering job and took 2 years to drive from Alaska to Argentina, having the time of my life. [1] Then I worked for a bit again to save money, and quit aga…

> I love the coding aspect. I love using my brain, solving problems, working with intelligent people. I can't handle sitting inside for 50 hours a week, and I can't handle business politics and nonsense.

A wild consideration: Doesn't the fact that many companies "select" for people who love solving hard problems (e.g. by using brainteaser coding problems in the hiring process) cause this problem? This way, the company hires people who prefer a very different kind of work than what they have to do in their job.

A further thought: How could a hiring process look like that selects for the kind of work that one actually has to do?

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#78

Post by wolfgke »

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #50
durnygbur wrote: post #42

> It’s really hard to celebrate “women’s day” with free feminist speakers when I just found out some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more. Please stop this. STOP. If "a man" is paid 20% less, they're expected to change job and ask 20% more at the new one. This is what is expected of "men".

How much one gets paid in relation to their peers is solely based on negotiation, in the beginning of my career i was a poor negotiator, after several years i did my research, got competing offers are used those as leverage to get the best offer. I was never taught any of these skills, i learned from experience, and by pushing myself to do things i'm uncomfortable with (would you believe me if i said in the beginning…

> How much one gets paid in relation to their peers is solely based on negotiation

This is very US-specific and does not hold, for example, in Germany. I actually prefer the situation in Germany: this way, you can concentrate on getting better at programming instead of having to invest lots of time to become good at negotiation, too.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#79

Post by wolfgke »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #75
zaphar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a manager lowballs an offer for a woman because they think they can get away with it then that manager deserves to be condemned for it. Fullstop. That behavior only indicates a lack of respect for the individual. If you work for a manager who does that then you should question whether they have any respect for their employees including you. A developer has so many options that there is rarely a good reason to work…

Does a manager deserve to be condemned if he lowballs a man, because he thinks he can get away with it?

> Does a manager deserve to be condemned if he lowballs a man, because he thinks he can get away with it?

Yes, because paying very different salaries for a very similar position causes a lot a damage to the reputation of the company if it comes to light.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#80

Post by dagw »

zerogvt wrote: post #69
dagw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cool thing about being a programmer is that you can use it in basically every field of endeavor out there. If you want to work with movies, you can work with movies. Are you passionate about urban planning, ecology or archaeology, there are lots of roles for programming in all those fields. Want to be a journalist, lots of programming and data mining happening within journalism these days. There are basically two…

That is a naive opinion IMHO. In all but the core SW roles you would merely be a simple cog being told what to do. If for example you'd be coding for an archaelogy department you would be the code monkey of the professor heads. Even worse you would have to battle their ignorant views on SW. My guess is that you'd hate playing that role and that you would run as fast as you could back to a SW house doing fragmented wo…

I've worked both ends of this 'spectrum' several times in my career and your experience doesn't match mine at all. I've rarely had the problem of domain experts treating me as a cog, and certainly not more so that in a 'normal' SW house. If you come in humble, ask a lot of questions and listen to people you'll quickly become a respected member of the team.

The important part is to understand, enjoy and respect the domain you are working in. Then working with domain experts to use software to solve problems you both care about can be both fun and rewarding. And

You are right that you will have to 'battle' their ignorant views of SW development. But those battles are rarely hard to win if you're a bit diplomatic, because people don't care to much. They might not have any version control in place when you start and might not see the need for it, but I've never experienced anyone forbidding me from using version control. Most of the time they even come around to it as being pretty good idea.

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