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I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

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Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#51

Post by jacobwilliamroy »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #35
jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she lives in the U.S. it can be difficult to find an employer who's willing to cover the cost of living in exchange for labor. Sounds like she's stuck in a positive feedback loop of medical expenses, and that makes it hard to be picky about jobs.

What??? Maybe in Silicon Valley, but everywhere else in the US if you’re a programmer you’re in the top 25% incomes locally, probably higher. In Austin, a good front end dev and you’re living in pretty much any neighborhood you want.

But at what cost? It sounds nice to be in the top 25% but if the conditions are unsustainable, it won't matter.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#53

Post by zaphar »

durnygbur wrote: post #42

> It’s really hard to celebrate “women’s day” with free feminist speakers when I just found out some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more. Please stop this. STOP. If "a man" is paid 20% less, they're expected to change job and ask 20% more at the new one. This is what is expected of "men".

If a manager lowballs an offer for a woman because they think they can get away with it then that manager deserves to be condemned for it. Fullstop. That behavior only indicates a lack of respect for the individual. If you work for a manager who does that then you should question whether they have any respect for their employees including you. A developer has so many options that there is rarely a good reason to work for such a disrespectful manager.

[Edit: wording]

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#54

Post by human20190310 »

durnygbur wrote: post #42

> It’s really hard to celebrate “women’s day” with free feminist speakers when I just found out some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more. Please stop this. STOP. If "a man" is paid 20% less, they're expected to change job and ask 20% more at the new one. This is what is expected of "men".

There's so little transparency as to what employees get paid that "outsiders", i.e. those who don't have an informal network of pals providing them confidential salary information on-the-side, don't have a way to determine what numbers to shoot for.

Someone well-connected would have avoided the company with the salary discrepancy before they accepted a job; those less well-connected incur the costly overhead of a job search when they finally find out the real deal.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#55

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

fuball63 wrote: post #21

One thing that the article doesn't touch on is how a passion for software craftsmanship can be completely undermined by the recklessness of business decisions. I love the experience of writing and using rock solid programs, but in the real world, there are deadlines to meet, flaky requirements, and tech debt. For people in it for the money, it doesn't affect them. For people that appreciated good software, it turns t…

there are deadlines to meet, flaky requirements, and tech debt

That's where software development grows from skill to art. What do customers actually want? What mostly likely will be their next requirement? Can we optimize the API to speed up development and use the extra time we got to improve stability? Which projects should be reported to the management proudly and which ones should be quietly sneaked into the codebase? And so on so forth.

Using your chef analogy, at some point it's no longer about flipping the burgers, it's about organizing the kitchen, optimizing purchases and educating the freshmen.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#56

Post by stanski »

durnygbur wrote: post #42

> It’s really hard to celebrate “women’s day” with free feminist speakers when I just found out some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more. Please stop this. STOP. If "a man" is paid 20% less, they're expected to change job and ask 20% more at the new one. This is what is expected of "men".

Pretty sure there's some guy doing the same work as me and getting paid 20% more. (and I'm male)

Of course she is talking about averages, but it does come off as a weak argument when it's put that way.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#57

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

human20190310 wrote: post #54
durnygbur wrote: post #42

> It’s really hard to celebrate “women’s day” with free feminist speakers when I just found out some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more. Please stop this. STOP. If "a man" is paid 20% less, they're expected to change job and ask 20% more at the new one. This is what is expected of "men".

There's so little transparency as to what employees get paid that "outsiders", i.e. those who don't have an informal network of pals providing them confidential salary information on-the-side, don't have a way to determine what numbers to shoot for. Someone well-connected would have avoided the company with the salary discrepancy before they accepted a job; those less well-connected incur the costly overhead of a job…

After several years in the industry it's hard not to get a network of pals. If you're lucky enough, some of them will make it into management. Their information about how hiring and promotions actually work is indeed indispensable.

For the asocial folks like me who are incapable of making any friends at all, there are recruiters. Most of them will happily discuss what "a typical number for a person of my level" should be.

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#58

Post by dctoedt »

By no means should we ever stop trying to improve working conditions for all, but we should also keep in mind that throughout history, most workers haven't had the luxury of being able to feed their families by doing fun- or personally-fulfilling work. At least we don't have to wrestle a heavy plow behind a balky ox or mule for hours on end in hot, humid weather (to give just one example).

Re: I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

#59

Post by fuball63 »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #55
fuball63 wrote: post #21

One thing that the article doesn't touch on is how a passion for software craftsmanship can be completely undermined by the recklessness of business decisions. I love the experience of writing and using rock solid programs, but in the real world, there are deadlines to meet, flaky requirements, and tech debt. For people in it for the money, it doesn't affect them. For people that appreciated good software, it turns t…

there are deadlines to meet, flaky requirements, and tech debt That's where software development grows from skill to art. What do customers actually want? What mostly likely will be their next requirement? Can we optimize the API to speed up development and use the extra time we got to improve stability? Which projects should be reported to the management proudly and which ones should be quietly sneaked into the code…

I think this notion is where I'm trying to steer my mentality about work. I know the right things to do, I see patterns of why they don't get implemented, so my focus is "what creative solutions can I devise to do what is right in this environment".

It's just a matter of putting creativity in a different place.

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