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Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

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Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#281

Post by bad_user »

goatinaboat wrote: post #211
bad_user wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We live in the world where we can see a bait and switch for what it is. MongoDB was advertised as being Open Source and Free Software , distributed under an OSI-compliant and FSF-compliant license. Now they are trying to eat their cake and have it too. > " then are lambasted when they try to prevent a competitor from copying it wholesale? " Because that's not what open source is about. Open source is about contributi…

I hope somebody forks MongoDB from the version when it was open source. That no one has done that already suggests that no one thinks it’s worth doing. And it isn’t, Postgres is properly free, and more than surpasses Mongo in all aspects.

Forking takes resources.

MariaDB, the MySQL fork, didn't happen over night.

Give it time.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#282

Post by gwd »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #243
xtiansimon wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m confused. I believed the story of Open Source software begins in the 50s and 60s when early OS was essentially free, and the beasts software ran on was the profit center. The culture for free open source software (and its benefits) was prevalent. But by the 70s companies we’re changing their attitude about this IP. I’m a reaction to increased restrictions Richard Stallman founded the GNU project in 1983. Is there…

The question is whether Open Source has always been synonymous with free, I do not believe it has I just believe it has historically been strongly correlated but I could be wrong. However using the OSI as evidence of the original meaning of the term doesn't strike me as at all authoritative, especially as the OSI has all sorts of conditions that I do not believe were in any original definition of the term. as I am no…

> I feel that a useful term is needed for software where you can inspect the source as needed - perhaps inspectable source.

People have used the term 'source-available':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-available_software

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#283

Post by timfrietas »

grumpydba wrote: post #260
statictype wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really a bait and switch. They didn't use an Open Source license with the intention of getting popular and then pulling the rug out from underneath users. They tried to make their money by offering their tech as a service and found that they couldn't compete against the resources of large cloud providers who were happily profiting off of their (and the community's) hard work.

> They tried to make their money by offering their tech as a service and found that they couldn't compete against the resources of large cloud providers who were happily profiting off of their (and the community's) hard work. And now the community's hard work is licensed under a new and restrictive license which, due to legal constraints, cannot be used in entreprise setups.

  And now the community's hard work is licensed under a new 
  and restrictive license which, due to legal constraints, 
  cannot be used in entreprise setups.
Sure it can. It is fairly narrow in that it targets reselling it as-a-service. Many large companies are still running MongoDB for enterprise workloads, the SSPL does not change that.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#284

Post by PeterZaitsev »

elevenbits wrote: post #187

I'm astonished at all the comments that vilify MongoDB Inc and then talk about moving to AWS's MongoDB clone. What sort of twisted world are we living in where a company makes a service, tries to sell the service, and then are lambasted when they try to prevent a competitor from copying it wholesale? Cloud providers have been able to stand on the shoulders of giants, profiting immensely from millions of lines of open…

I think you need to consider the followings

- There is nothing wrong with Proprietary software. MongoDB is vilified because they built community on the assumption what this software will be Open Source. Because of this many spend a lot of their own time helping to promote MongoDB and one day MongoDB changed their license. Amazon's DocumentDB makes no Open Source promises

- Your competitors can copy your software is one of the downsides of having your software Open Source. You however may get much better adoption curve in return.

- This is not MongoDB boycott. If repository promises to its users it will only contain Open Source software and MongoDB is not any more it naturally has to be removed. Keeping it will mean breaking promise to repository users

- MongoDB can't compete with AWS is quite far fetched statement. Competing with AWS could possibly slowed MongoDB growth of course.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#286

Post by nevi-me »

bad_user wrote: post #280
pas wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do all that with Mongo's new license. It's an AGPL + AWS-is-killing-our-support/monitoring/ops-business license.

How do you know? The license is no longer OSI approved, so how do you know what you're allowed or not allowed to do? How do you know that what's keeping AWS from using it isn't also creating a problem from you? Have you consulted with a lawyer? That's one benefit of using actual Open Source. You have a definition that all licenses have to comply with, such that developers know exactly the set of freedoms that's commo…

You're outsourcing your thinking to an organisation that's looking at specific definitions. Might be better to read the licensee and compare it with the previous one.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#287

Post by grumpydba »

timfrietas wrote: post #283
grumpydba wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They tried to make their money by offering their tech as a service and found that they couldn't compete against the resources of large cloud providers who were happily profiting off of their (and the community's) hard work. And now the community's hard work is licensed under a new and restrictive license which, due to legal constraints, cannot be used in entreprise setups.

And now the community's hard work is licensed under a new and restrictive license which, due to legal constraints, cannot be used in entreprise setups. Sure it can. It is fairly narrow in that it targets reselling it as-a-service. Many large companies are still running MongoDB for enterprise workloads, the SSPL does not change that.

Yeah go ahead and try using such a byzantine license in big corps. I know my legal department wouldn't even dare taking the risk.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#288

Post by xtiansimon »

pizza234 wrote: post #244
xtiansimon wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m confused. I believed the story of Open Source software begins in the 50s and 60s when early OS was essentially free, and the beasts software ran on was the profit center. The culture for free open source software (and its benefits) was prevalent. But by the 70s companies we’re changing their attitude about this IP. I’m a reaction to increased restrictions Richard Stallman founded the GNU project in 1983. Is there…

As far as I understand, the parent's doubt is about the _definition_ of "open source": > I could swear that this has not always been the exact definition > I believe this because I also believe there used to be two terms open source, and free, that these were distinct, and that all things that were open source were not necessarily free or vice versa. In this perspective, the history, as reported, matches: originally,…

Isn’t the parent not mistaken in their belief? Early softwares was free because no one cared or saw the value, until the technology evolved. Then companies saw the value, and locked it down (is it important to recognize those peeps we’re the mega-corps of the time like AT&T, not the scrappy peeps we call our peers today). Then academics couldn’t do their work, without violating growing property rights restrictions.

We’re not talking about the proverbial ‘historical house in private hands’—can we look around at this excellent example of early Frank Lloyd Wright house in Chicago. We’re talking about ownership and control for profit.

Mongo wants to wiggle out of the bind they find themselves in. Does anyone else feel this discussion is starting to feel like ‘workshopping’ the legal definitions entrepreneurs and coders can both agree on?

Maybe the parent is asking as a curiosity—Isn’t there also a second origin story about inspection without rights?

But, in the context of the original post’s topic of Mongo and the pickle they’re in, I reserve my normally generous nature, lest I find myself the cuckolded against my own interests.

There seems to be a curious spate of discussions lately about legal use, copyright, and trademark.

Google patenting some machine learning techniques [1] here on HN.

On a Philosophy Podcast I listen to there is an interview with on a legal scholar on his work defending plagiarism [2]

And for the record I am an ardent advocate of FOSS. I believe Mongo is in a pickle, and they should do the right thing to honor the spirit of OSS. And if they can’t, then they should surrender the property to someone who can.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20863515

[2]: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/elucidations-a-univers...

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#289

Post by SergeAx »

bad_user wrote: post #276
SergeAx wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can really recommend you to look at Free Software Foundation website[1]. In a nutshell: free software is like "free will", not "free lunch". It gives users four essential freedoms: to run it any way one wants, to study and modify source code, to redistribute copies and particulary redistribute modified copies[2]. As you can see, "open source" give s only half of those freedoms: to study code, it is not mandadory th…

You're wrong and as a matter of fact the definition for Open Source is more clear and a little more restrictive than that of Free Software: https://opensource.org/osd

Thank you for the link. I was actually unaware of this organization. I was thinking that "open source" is more like a figure of speech, not ideology like "Free Software"

At the same time, we see a MongoDB example: a software, which definitely is open source, but also definitely is non-free.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#290

Post by pas »

bad_user wrote: post #269
pas wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Open source is about contributing to the commons, such that your competitors can make a profit from your work. If your competitors aren't able to do that, then the software is not open source. Period. This kind of first order reasoning is nice, but the reality of software economics is a tad bit more complex. The assumption that the market is large, that the commons helps everybody sort of equally are not true in a…

> " The assumption that the market is large, that the commons helps everybody sort of equally are not true in a lot of sectors. " Not sure what we are talking about, personally I don't make that assumption, although I recognize that others might. Yes, roads and highways help big companies more than they help small companies. That doesn't mean that smaller companies don't benefit from the existence of roads and highwa…

> Without that license, let's be honest, MongoDB wouldn't have gotten popular in the first place

MongoDB with its current license - in my opinion - would have gotten just as popular as it is now.

Yes, the legal questions are real, and were MongoDB just starting up they would work with OSI and experts to clarify things, they would put up a FAQ and so on to get people to trust them.

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