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Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

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Re: Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

#21

Post by southerntofu »

mschuster91 wrote: post #14
johnchristopher wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With some guns, some tanks, some international support, and the right leader, Hong Kong could win their independence from the monsters who run China. The moment military grade weaponry is used by freedom fighters (or protesters, or anything that stands in the way of mainland China) the whole thing will be over in 48hours to China's advantage. International support ? So, going at war with one of the top 3 nation on…

> Considering how Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. benefited from international support, what can go wrong ? At least the women in Afghanistan did - and now piece by piece their freedom is taken away from them with every day as the Taliban advance to re-take control again. The mistake of the Western world in all three conflicts was not entering it (one might argue it was neccessary to protect the human rights of the po…

> At least the women in Afghanistan did - and now piece by piece their freedom is taken away from them with every day as the Taliban advance to re-take control again.

How can you say this? Freedom is not disconnected from economic conditions. All the US army did in Afghanistan was kill as many "talibans" (which most were not) as possible and give away public infrastructure to private (usually foreign) corporations.

Neither men nor women have ever benefited from an army invading their land. That's why the talibans who once were a tiny conservative formation have been growing since the US invaded.

Pretending to invade a country to protect its women is deeply rooted in the history of colonization. France did the same in Algeria, for example.

Re: Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

#23

Post by mschuster91 »

southerntofu wrote: post #21
mschuster91 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering how Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. benefited from international support, what can go wrong ? At least the women in Afghanistan did - and now piece by piece their freedom is taken away from them with every day as the Taliban advance to re-take control again. The mistake of the Western world in all three conflicts was not entering it (one might argue it was neccessary to protect the human rights of the po…

> At least the women in Afghanistan did - and now piece by piece their freedom is taken away from them with every day as the Taliban advance to re-take control again. How can you say this? Freedom is not disconnected from economic conditions. All the US army did in Afghanistan was kill as many "talibans" (which most were not) as possible and give away public infrastructure to private (usually foreign) corporations. N…

> How can you say this? Freedom is not disconnected from economic conditions. All the US army did in Afghanistan was kill as many "talibans" (which most were not) as possible and give away public infrastructure to private (usually foreign) corporations.

Where the Taliban has power, schools for girls get closed and their freedoms that they gained (like, not having to wear a niqab/burqa) get taken away. Women in Afghanistan are actually afraid that the West pulling out of Afghanistan will leave them up for grabs: https://www.apnews.com/a63dfde74c594c9a8b13cfc366ea9c55

Re: Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

#24

Post by roenxi »

Anothernhym wrote: post #6

After Cheney's scaling event, I mean Bush's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, San Francisco protested hard. A lot of their techniques were innovative and new, and the organization was stunning. Occupy was even better tactically and strategically. None of them compared to the freedom fighters in Hong Kong. They do the things that Americans are too cowardly to imagine, like shutting down airports and transit. Have you…

> None of them compared to the freedom fighters in Hong Kong.

The Hong Kongese aren't protesting for freedom; so they probably aren't freedom fighters. If the Chinese had a legal tradition as sophisticated as what Hong Kong has acquired from the Western powers, there wouldn't be much to complain about. Of the now-famous '5 demands', at least 4 and arguably 5 center around a deep suspicion of mainland influence over the justice system.

As far as the reporting goes the spark for the protests was the idea that the Hong Kong judiciary would become more intertwined with the Chinese legal system, and that upset people. If the Chinese had a legal system that was regarded as 'pretty good' or 'world class' it isn't obvious why anyone in HK would care. They don't seem to have a problem with being Chinese. It isn't even obvious that they are protesting against the CCP.

> With some guns, some tanks, some international support, and the right leader, Hong Kong could win their independence from the monsters who run China.

I wouldn't try it in their shoes. They are physically a very small city compared to China and it wouldn't be very good for them in the long term.

Re: Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

#25

Post by FerretFred »

woutr_be wrote: post #10
Anothernhym wrote: post #6

After Cheney's scaling event, I mean Bush's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, San Francisco protested hard. A lot of their techniques were innovative and new, and the organization was stunning. Occupy was even better tactically and strategically. None of them compared to the freedom fighters in Hong Kong. They do the things that Americans are too cowardly to imagine, like shutting down airports and transit. Have you…

> With some guns, some tanks, some international support, and the right leader, Hong Kong could win their independence from the monsters who run China. First of all, that's not what they're protesting for at the moment. All they want is to maintain their autonomy without interference from China, which was promised for 50 years. Most people know that Independence isn't feasible. (Both politically and geographically) T…

> the moment things get seriously out of hand, I'm fairly certain they'll send in everything they got

I'm not so sure: they wouldn't want to be seen internationally as the 800-Lb gorilla. I suspect they'll impose sanctions and start making food and other essentials hard to obtain.

Re: Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

#26

Post by onetimemanytime »

Anothernhym wrote: post #6

After Cheney's scaling event, I mean Bush's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, San Francisco protested hard. A lot of their techniques were innovative and new, and the organization was stunning. Occupy was even better tactically and strategically. None of them compared to the freedom fighters in Hong Kong. They do the things that Americans are too cowardly to imagine, like shutting down airports and transit. Have you…

>>"With some guns, some tanks, some international support, and the right leader, Hong Kong could win their independence from the monsters who run China."

"They" would be independent...as in dead. You think China is going to allow a part of their country to secede? See Tibet or Xinjiang just to get an idea.

Re: Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

#27

Post by dsfyu404ed »

woutr_be wrote: post #10
Anothernhym wrote: post #6

After Cheney's scaling event, I mean Bush's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, San Francisco protested hard. A lot of their techniques were innovative and new, and the organization was stunning. Occupy was even better tactically and strategically. None of them compared to the freedom fighters in Hong Kong. They do the things that Americans are too cowardly to imagine, like shutting down airports and transit. Have you…

> With some guns, some tanks, some international support, and the right leader, Hong Kong could win their independence from the monsters who run China. First of all, that's not what they're protesting for at the moment. All they want is to maintain their autonomy without interference from China, which was promised for 50 years. Most people know that Independence isn't feasible. (Both politically and geographically) T…

>None of them compared to the freedom fighters in Hong Kong. They do the things that Americans are too cowardly to imagine, like shutting down airports and transit.

Because the Hong Kong protests represent the entire cross section of society. It has been a very, very long time since there was a protest inducing issue in the US that came close to that.

>The moment people start using guns, will also be the moment when HK is completely over.

It took the Brits a long time to get the IRA off their back and that was with little international support for the IRA and patchy local support for the IRA. If this spirals into a shooting war the unanimity with which HK opposes being subjugated by China will make this a very tough occupation for China.

Re: Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

#28

Post by dsfyu404ed »

johnchristopher wrote: post #8
Anothernhym wrote: post #6

After Cheney's scaling event, I mean Bush's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, San Francisco protested hard. A lot of their techniques were innovative and new, and the organization was stunning. Occupy was even better tactically and strategically. None of them compared to the freedom fighters in Hong Kong. They do the things that Americans are too cowardly to imagine, like shutting down airports and transit. Have you…

> With some guns, some tanks, some international support, and the right leader, Hong Kong could win their independence from the monsters who run China. The moment military grade weaponry is used by freedom fighters (or protesters, or anything that stands in the way of mainland China) the whole thing will be over in 48hours to China's advantage. International support ? So, going at war with one of the top 3 nation on…

>Considering how Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. benefited from international support, what can go wrong ?

It's called a proxy war. Literally every other regional power is salivating over the idea of a massive thorn in China's side that a) gets them slapped with first world sanctions and b) gives them less free time to bully everyone else in the region. You're kidding yourself if you think all their intelligence agencies aren't coming up with shovel ready plans to get the the protestors the things they need if they decide to become freedom fighters.

Re: Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

#29

Post by wtdata »

FerretFred wrote: post #25
woutr_be wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With some guns, some tanks, some international support, and the right leader, Hong Kong could win their independence from the monsters who run China. First of all, that's not what they're protesting for at the moment. All they want is to maintain their autonomy without interference from China, which was promised for 50 years. Most people know that Independence isn't feasible. (Both politically and geographically) T…

> the moment things get seriously out of hand, I'm fairly certain they'll send in everything they got I'm not so sure: they wouldn't want to be seen internationally as the 800-Lb gorilla. I suspect they'll impose sanctions and start making food and other essentials hard to obtain.

> I'm not so sure: they wouldn't want to be seen internationally as the 800-Lb gorilla.

China didn't have any issue with being the gorilla in cases like Tibet. So, no real reason why HK would be any different.

Re: Real-Time maps warn Hong Kong protesters of water cannons and riot police

#30

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

Anothernhym wrote: post #6

After Cheney's scaling event, I mean Bush's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, San Francisco protested hard. A lot of their techniques were innovative and new, and the organization was stunning. Occupy was even better tactically and strategically. None of them compared to the freedom fighters in Hong Kong. They do the things that Americans are too cowardly to imagine, like shutting down airports and transit. Have you…

> Occupy was even better tactically and strategically.

oh please. occupy wall street was dismantled when burger king stopped letting them use their bathroom.

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