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Why California May Go Nuclear

forbes.com

21–30 of 102 posts

Re: Why California May Go Nuclear

#22

Can we shoot the waste into space? Also, if you could slow down a nuclear explosion, could you use for rocket fuel?

"shoot it into the sun" is a common meme but ultimately a terrible idea for a whole host of reasons.

Nuclear rockets are real and work [1].

You can also just shove tiny nukes out the bottom of your ship [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NERVA

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propuls...

Re: Why California May Go Nuclear

#23
> “But we can’t make a serious dent in slowing the warming trend in the world without investment in nuclear power.”

That's... not really true. Cost to build out nuclear power capacity remains much (seriously, MUCH) higher than for solar or wind.

It's true that nuclear is carbon free, really quite safe, and very useful. You certainly don't want to be deliberately decomissioning reactors in a world where we're still trying to get legacy coal plants off the grid. But if you're going to spend $100M on new capacity, I want to see numbers that say this is actually better than buying a bunch of windmill blades.

It's a similar situation to hydro power. Dams are clean in a carbon sense but "bad" in lots of other ecological ways. No one is pushing for new dams, even if we all tolerate the ones that are already there.

Re: Why California May Go Nuclear

#24
post #10

Conservationists need to really make peace with the fact that the only way out of climate change involves building a very, very strong nuclear energy portfolio. This is difficult for people because it requires engaging in politics because these things are only as safe as they are well maintained. But actually, we do a surprisingly good job in America at keeping our nuclear plants running rather well, and we should be…

This is what I'd describe as a 'narrowly rational view'. All other things being equal, x leads to y. In this case - political, economic and social conditions remaining in roughly the same range as they have since the post war period. This is quite frankly a wildly unsupported assumption - when compared to the span of human history, or even taking the 20th century into account (rather than merely the post war period). The idea that we should build devices which will become deadly (and indeed irreparable) under conditions of economic collapse, pandemic, conventional, let alone nuclear conflict, is utterly irrational. Over a long enough time line, all else is never equal. In the case of human culture and civilisation, that time line - i.e.: the duration of a stable society, let alone a stable post industrial society - isn't particularly long at all. And we have no good reason to assume that our current high volatile, tightly couple global economic system and political order will fare any better.

And lets say you believe that we are for whatever reason living in some kind of stable 'end of history' period; need I remind anyone that California is home to the San Andreas Fault, which is long overdue to produce the so called 'big one' >7.0 mega quake.

Re: Why California May Go Nuclear

#25

Can we shoot the waste into space? Also, if you could slow down a nuclear explosion, could you use for rocket fuel?

Waste into space is a bad idea, mostly because it is much easier to dispose of here on Earth than it is to put it up into space.

(Personally, I find the arguments about how hard waste is to dispose of deeply unconvincing. It's treated as a stick to beat people with, rather than an engineering problem to be solved, and one that is, frankly, almost entirely solved already in a number of ways.)

There are a wide variety of ways to use nuclear power for propulsion, such as: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket NASA has recently been renewing investigations into this, as nuclear rockets have a much better story for getting into the rest of the solar system in some reasonably period of time.

You can ride on explosions, but, I mean, it's kinda brute force: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propuls... That said, if there was a "asteroid impact in three years that will wipe out humanity", this would be our best chance of lofting enough $STUFF into space to maybe survive as a species.

Re: Why California May Go Nuclear

#26
post #10

Conservationists need to really make peace with the fact that the only way out of climate change involves building a very, very strong nuclear energy portfolio. This is difficult for people because it requires engaging in politics because these things are only as safe as they are well maintained. But actually, we do a surprisingly good job in America at keeping our nuclear plants running rather well, and we should be…

> Conservationists need to [...]

Nuclear boosters need to start showing numbers proving this point instead of taking potshots on HN. Nuclear needs to be worthwhile on a balance sheet before anyone is going to take it seriously. Even now, it's cheaper to build out wind and solar. And the new technologies are rapidly getting cheaper.

Show numbers.

Re: Why California May Go Nuclear

#27

> Diablo generates 9% of California’s electricity and 20% of its clean, carbon-free electricity. It's remarkable that one nuclear plant generates 9% of the electricity for the entire state of California, and that they would have ever considered closing it (unless absolutely necessary). Build a few more of those over time and California has no power concerns for the next 50-60 years combined with the expansion of othe…

The problem is multi-fold.

1) A good size chunk of California is seismically active, which is generally a bad idea for nuclear power plant placement.

2) Nuclear power plants require large water sources nearby for cooling. Large chunks of California where power is actually needed are essentially deserts without lakes or reservoirs that can be easily used for this without environmental concerns. You could place them on the coast, but this brings its own set of environmental problems and potential dangers.

3) Nuclear power plants are not quick to build. We're talking 5+ years to get one up and running, even in the ridiculously optimistic estimates from industry proponents. So you need to make the case that in 5 years when one is running it will be better than if we had built more solar + wind + battery over the same period of time (a solar farm can be constructed in a few months, battery storage can be installed in weeks).

4) Nuclear waste is not a solved problem, no matter what proponents tell you. The solution right now is to just kind of keep it hanging around mostly secured locations and hope for the best. Long-term storage proposals have still not gone anywhere, so you're basically just hoping that nothing terrible happens until there's political and financial will to do something about it.

5) Power requirements per capita have been mostly flat or dropping for years in the US, and this is expected to accelerate as homeowners continue to install their own supplemental power systems. Building more gigawatt-scale nuclear power plants is a huge investment with a questionable ROI given this fact.

To me, nuclear power is a solution whose time has likely already passed. It just doesn't make much sense to install more baseload power via nuclear these days when we have non-coal alternatives available and dropping power requirements overall. Continued pushes for efficiency improvements, green buildings, residential solar+battery installs, and grid-scale renewable installs are cheaper, faster, and have less risks.

Re: Why California May Go Nuclear

#28

Can we shoot the waste into space? Also, if you could slow down a nuclear explosion, could you use for rocket fuel?

Think how relatively often rockets blow up during launch. Think about how disastrous an explosion during launch would be.

Things just have to go bad once and we likely have a disaster worse than Chernobal. So not good odds when safer options exist.

As for the rocket fuel comment, take a look at Project Orion.

Re: Why California May Go Nuclear

#29
post #23

> “But we can’t make a serious dent in slowing the warming trend in the world without investment in nuclear power.” That's... not really true. Cost to build out nuclear power capacity remains much (seriously, MUCH) higher than for solar or wind. It's true that nuclear is carbon free, really quite safe, and very useful. You certainly don't want to be deliberately decomissioning reactors in a world where we're still tr…

Windmills can’t provide steady base load power all the time. They need to be paired with some sort of storage technology.

Re: Why California May Go Nuclear

#30
post #11
post #9

I don't think I'll ever forgive the environmental movement for turning their back on nuclear technology. Yes, there are safety concerns but the price of inaction was the climate. I would take an accident or two over climate change any day.

The really grim reality is that many environmentalists who correctly point the finger at unaccountable capitalists are themselves doing extreme harm by demonizing the only technology that can really help us in the next 10 years.

"demonizing the only technology"

Really, the only technology? Not inshore wind turbines? Not hydrochlorofluorocarbon elimination?

"that can really help us in the next 10 years."

I doubt California could build a nuclear power plant in 10 years, and even if they did it would be crazy expensive and still take several years before it became operational. There are better ways to reduce and remove CO2 for the money.

Having said that, I (and probably many environmentalists) would still keep Diablo Canyon given the sunk costs and benefits. However it doesn't mean I think we should be spending money building more nuclear power plants.

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