OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#41

Post by admax88q » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

dooglius wrote: post #38

robmusial wrote: post #25

For those that can't watch the video GregKH says that OpenBSD was right to disable hyper-threading earlier than Linux in response to Spectre and Meltdown and now Linux disables it too. He also caveats it by saying they were right for "a little bit of the wrong reasons" but at least in this clip doesn't expand on what he meant by that or what those wrong reasons were or why they were wrong.

Why should the kernel be making this decision at all, rather than leaving it up to the distro or a command-line boot argument? EDIT: can't see the video so if it is just a default rather than a forced disablement that's fine.

Because sane defaults are important.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#42

Post by knocte » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #9

History will show that Theo was right in a manner similar to how Stalman was right: technically correct analysis and eerily accurate predictions, but lacking in sufficient charisma to create more than a small following. To some extent, you might say they are like Cassandra; speaking the truth but not believed or listened to.

> but lacking in sufficient charisma to create more than a small following.

IMO it's not that Linus has more charisma than Theo, it's simply the network effect of one project over the other.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#43

Post by dleslie » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

knocte wrote: post #42

dleslie wrote: post #9

History will show that Theo was right in a manner similar to how Stalman was right: technically correct analysis and eerily accurate predictions, but lacking in sufficient charisma to create more than a small following. To some extent, you might say they are like Cassandra; speaking the truth but not believed or listened to.

> but lacking in sufficient charisma to create more than a small following. IMO it's not that Linus has more charisma than Theo, it's simply the network effect of one project over the other.

It wasn't Linus; it was RedHat, SuSE, and the rest of the early commercial Linux endeavours.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#44

Post by geggam » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:19 PM UTC

danarmak wrote: post #11

Conan_Kudo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In retrospect, it's probably a good thing. BSD splinters have largely become incompatible with each other, whereas Linux distro splinters have (largely) remained compatible due to licensing and cultural differences. We probably would have had BSD wars for real not long after, if it had become popular. To some extent, this is by design, as there's no culture or ethos that pushes people back together.

On the other hand, if BSDs had been more popular, one of these splinters might have dominated the market as much as Linux does, due to the many positive feedback effects of being the most successful free OS.

It still is a possibility. The Linux community is becoming a mess of things stuck together in and its getting to be really interesting to support.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#45

Post by beefhash » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #23

danarmak wrote: post #15

Two of the three (current) top-level replies compare BSDs to Linux in general, but that really has nothing to do with whether you disable HT. Using Linux should not have stopped anyone from listening to Theo and disabling HT months ago. Your security authorities don't have to be your kernel developers.

> Using Linux should not have stopped anyone from listening to Theo and disabling HT months ago. Iirc OpenBSD actively disabled it for you, making it the default. Nobody else did that.

> Iirc OpenBSD actively disabled it for you, making it the default.

They have, as of this commit[1] on 2018-06-19.

[1] https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=152943660103446&w=2

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#46

Post by verytrivial » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

mikece wrote: post #2

Why aren’t the *BSD operating systems more popular in the server and workstation spaces?

Without trying to sound facetious: "marketing". By that I mean the BSDs aren't trying to capture $$$ but seem to be focusing on good craft and sound engineering first etc and service markets where that matters more than other concerns. Turns out that market isn't as big as others.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#47

Post by baybal2 » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #23

danarmak wrote: post #15

Two of the three (current) top-level replies compare BSDs to Linux in general, but that really has nothing to do with whether you disable HT. Using Linux should not have stopped anyone from listening to Theo and disabling HT months ago. Your security authorities don't have to be your kernel developers.

> Using Linux should not have stopped anyone from listening to Theo and disabling HT months ago. Iirc OpenBSD actively disabled it for you, making it the default. Nobody else did that.

In fact, cache p3 timing attack was known as "theoretically possible" back in nineties, but was booed out of the conversation by "big name security analysts"

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#48

Post by spacemanmatt » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

knocte wrote: post #42

dleslie wrote: post #9

History will show that Theo was right in a manner similar to how Stalman was right: technically correct analysis and eerily accurate predictions, but lacking in sufficient charisma to create more than a small following. To some extent, you might say they are like Cassandra; speaking the truth but not believed or listened to.

> but lacking in sufficient charisma to create more than a small following. IMO it's not that Linus has more charisma than Theo, it's simply the network effect of one project over the other.

Seems like the history of science and technology is littered with crackpots (alchemists, egotists, etc) who made amazing discoveries.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#49

Post by notacoward » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

mikece wrote: post #2

Why aren’t the *BSD operating systems more popular in the server and workstation spaces?

Because the large companies that deploy hundreds of thousands of servers need to hire lots and lots of people to make or maintain local enhancements, at all levels from the OS to libraries and utilities. In that environment it's not hard to make a local change that saves a million dollars in running-hardware costs, and it's also not hard to find Linux developers to make those changes. OpenBSD developers? Not so much. Then smaller companies do what the big ones are doing even when the potential for million-dollar enhancements isn't there, often because their founders and/or most of their personnel came from those big companies. It's the "rich get richer" effect familiar from social networks, but for software platforms.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#50

Post by UI_at_80x24 » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

mikece wrote: post #2

Why aren’t the *BSD operating systems more popular in the server and workstation spaces?

It is if you know where to look or who to talk to.

That is the exact same question I was asked ~20 years ago regarding Linux vs Windows.

The barrier to entry is higher on *BSD then it is on Linux. But with the appropriate skills/time/energy it is very much worth the effort.

ALL of my edge devices run OpenBSD(since 2011). Most of my Internal servers run FreeBSD (90+%), with the remainder on OpenBSD. I made the decision to migrate away from Linux when SystemD was made default in Debian. In my mind they make more sense. I can grok the config files and Init process. MAN pages are much easier to understand. Network config is brain-dead simple and powerful; that's a combination that shouldn't be overlooked.

I freely admit that I'm an old-fart. My manager thinks I'm a hippy, and my co-workers think I'm a Unix-greybeard. In reality it's just this simple: It does what I want, and gets out of the way.