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The growing science of memory manipulation

scientificamerican.com

111–120 of 156 posts

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#111
Sorry guys this is absolutly not new!!!!

More than 30+ years of psychology research proved that the brain reconstruct any memories as it needed to. One sample amongs thhousands : https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/acp.1390

There are 83,000 more researches on the subject https://scholar.google.fr/scholar?q=memories+creation+photos... So prepare to be scare if you think you need it, as there is nothing more volatile than human memmories (including yours ;)

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#113
post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

We’ve got these small pottery bowls I really like. One day, I noticed there only seemed to be two of them. I asked my spouse what happened to the other two. She replied that we only ever owned two. I said, no that can’t be right, I’m certain we had four. She insisted only two. A while later I found a third. I went to her and said, ah ha, see, three bowls! Where did the fourth go?

And do you know what she says? “We’ve only ever had three.”

It’s been many months now, maybe a year, and there’s still only three, but hand to god, I’m going to find that fourth bowl.

I still can’t get a straight answer out of her why she’s so certain there were only ever three when she was just as certain there were only ever two until confronted with the physical reality of three bowls.

Now she thinks this is about being right, but I insist it isn’t. It’s the unsettling idea that my memory isn’t correct.

I may just have to let this one go... :-)

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#114
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. I'm not aware of any evidence that we can believe our own memories. Memory is much like eyesight. There is a very complex process going on to give you the illusion of a clear and consistent picture that is at odds with what the messy and biological process we rely on can actually achieve. The basic problem is that people don't by and large scientifically assess the…

This is what rationalization looks like. "Oh, well, memories are kinda inaccurate, so, it really doesn't matter if we modify them wholesale." Fairly dangerous rationalization.

Just Devil's Advocate, but I think it's fairly well established that human memories are not "kinda inaccurate", they are woefully inaccurate. Most of the time a human can get some of the big stuff right, but the neuro-psychological underpinnings of "attention" and "memory" pretty much guarantee we will miss a lot of what's going on. (And if we can put the human under enough stress, s/he will not even get the big stuff right.) The fact is, humans rarely even "see" what's actually in front of them, let alone have any "memory" of what was actually in front of them. (For us, reality is not reality, rather our perception is our reality.)

Now the memory being inaccurate to start with does not make manipulating that already inaccurate memory "ok". There's no question about that. Though having said that, it's important to note that because memories are so malleable and inaccurate, we've actually been manipulating them for a long time. It's actually a pretty well researched area.

I mean, this is not really new.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#115
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. I'm not aware of any evidence that we can believe our own memories. Memory is much like eyesight. There is a very complex process going on to give you the illusion of a clear and consistent picture that is at odds with what the messy and biological process we rely on can actually achieve. The basic problem is that people don't by and large scientifically assess the…

This is what rationalization looks like. "Oh, well, memories are kinda inaccurate, so, it really doesn't matter if we modify them wholesale." Fairly dangerous rationalization.

I agree that it is bad to embrace/shrug off memory manipulation with the rationalization that memory has always been reliable. [Edit: Unreliable]

It is also bad to ignore the evidence that memories are unreliable with or without memory manipulation.

We can acknowledge the weakness without using it as justification.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#116
post #113
post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

We’ve got these small pottery bowls I really like. One day, I noticed there only seemed to be two of them. I asked my spouse what happened to the other two. She replied that we only ever owned two. I said, no that can’t be right, I’m certain we had four. She insisted only two. A while later I found a third. I went to her and said, ah ha, see, three bowls! Where did the fourth go? And do you know what she says? “We’ve…

3 is an awkward number of bowls so there definitely used to be 4. Dishware usually comes in multiples of 2

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#117

Sorry guys this is absolutly not new!!!! More than 30+ years of psychology research proved that the brain reconstruct any memories as it needed to. One sample amongs thhousands : https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/acp.1390 There are 83,000 more researches on the subject https://scholar.google.fr/scholar?q=memories+creation+photos... So prepare to be scare if you think you need it, as there is nothing mor…

I have been aware of how easily my own memory can be manipulated, even by my own self. I've taken stories told to me years ago and have retold them as I had lived them. Then there was the whole Shaq Kazam movie that people swore existed but never did.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#118
post #116
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’ve got these small pottery bowls I really like. One day, I noticed there only seemed to be two of them. I asked my spouse what happened to the other two. She replied that we only ever owned two. I said, no that can’t be right, I’m certain we had four. She insisted only two. A while later I found a third. I went to her and said, ah ha, see, three bowls! Where did the fourth go? And do you know what she says? “We’ve…

3 is an awkward number of bowls so there definitely used to be 4. Dishware usually comes in multiples of 2

I’ve argued that point. We think we got them at a pottery tent at the state fair where they may have been in bulk and we just purchased three, but I don’t know why we would have bought an odd number.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#119
post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

How is content disappearing from the internet "gas lighting"? Internet content are not "memories" and if you didn't post the content yourself and didn't even bother to store a local copy of it, why should you be entitled to that information in the future?

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#120
post #97
post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

> Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. I'm not aware of any evidence that we can believe our own memories. Memory is much like eyesight. There is a very complex process going on to give you the illusion of a clear and consistent picture that is at odds with what the messy and biological process we rely on can actually achieve. The basic problem is that people don't by and large scientifically assess the…

> The basic problem is that people don't by and large scientifically assess their memories for accuracy

But wouldn't any practice of assessing one's own memories intermediately depend on memory faculties? I can quickly think of two dependencies:

1. Working memory (maybe this is tangential and not really on topic for long-term memory) 2. Semantic memories required to assess the legitimacy of a memory. E.g. if we were to shoot for "scientific assessments" like you said, then said assessment would rely on memories that allow for scientific assessment. I'm no scientist and don't know quite what such "scientific assessment" would look like in practice, but if you have an assessment framework you're deliberately working within, it seems like you'd have to at least have semantic memory/existing knowledge of that same framework.

Perhaps manipulation of episodic memory doesn't clearly pose such problems, but I expect that's neither here nor there.

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