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Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

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Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#181

Post by eli »

krn wrote: post #114
Steve44 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main difference between Waze and Google Maps is that Waze uses real time traffic data. Google Maps has real time traffic data and the accuracy is staggering. I occasionally use Google Maps for navigation in the car and it even highlights traffic stationary at traffic lights and temporary road works as I’m approaching. This level or real time detail really amazed me. I’ve not spent any time looking onto how they…

> Google Maps has real time traffic data and the accuracy is staggering. But does Google Maps use real time traffic data to calculate the most optimal route in the same way as Waze does? As I understand, that's the main difference between the two.

Yes, they definitely both take traffic into account when calculating a route. My suspicion is that they're actually using the same raw data, but Waze is tuned to be more aggressive. Waze routinely guides me off a main road onto a side street to avoid two blocks of congestion for a net gain of maybe 1 minute, Google Maps doesn't.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#182

Post by noxToken »

kenned3 wrote: post #159
orthoxerox wrote: post #147

> These thousands of homeowners and renters have arguably been injured by Waze’s and Google’s successful privatization of formerly public streets. That's a... very creative interpetation of what public and private mean. If you don't want your side street to be driven on at 30 mph, then you can't drive on it at 30 mph either. Traffic calming measures are a thing. Make it even more winding, add road bumps, bottlenecks.…

These "NIMBY" people always make me laught. if you dont want to have a ton of traffic dont buy a house on a major road. There is a street on the subdivision i live in with the same issue. it is the main entry point to the subdivision. people bought houses there, then fought the city for years over traffic? they put up stop signs, speed bumps, etc. they wanted the lower house prices associated with living on main road…

>if you dont want to have a ton of traffic dont buy a house on a major road.

You're not wrong, but Waze directs traffic down roads that aren't considered main thoroughfares. That's part of the issue. There are paths to work that I would have never imagined had I not used Waze, and plenty of those routes take me through quiet neighborhoods.

A good example is the shunting yard I encounter. Most of the time, trains are short enough that if they stop, they don't block the crossing. There is a short way through a neighborhood that adds a couple of minutes to your commute (in either direction) that dumps you out on a highway just on the other side. There are also two longer routes (one for north, one for south) that goes around neighborhoods but adds 10-20 minutes to your drive time. I wouldn't call the short route a main nor major road, but I'm sure the residents who bought those houses more than a few years ago didn't know that the uptick in rail usage would cause much more activity on their street. You can even cut deeper into the neighborhood to save minutes by circumventing the line of cars.

On a related note, I stopped using Waze after watching someone roll through about 5 stop signs. The driver didn't hit anything, but that moment made me realize that I was part of a neighborhood nuisance that nobody asked for.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#183

Post by hammock »

floatingatoll wrote: post #150

It’s disappointing to see LADOT neglecting to use a road management tool already at their disposal to stop Waze’s abuse of their residential zones: No Thru Traffic. Posting NTT signs at entry points into residential neighborhoods and specifying even as little as a $5 fine would make entry for thru routing unlawful, stopping Waze. Whether or not the city enforces these signs would be irrelevant, as long as the traffic…

Not sure that reducing thruway and adding tolls is the solution to traffic..in fact it sounds counterproductive.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#184

Post by 2_listerine_pls »

gambiting wrote: post #180
2_listerine_pls wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably infer your vehicle type from acceleration data

How would that be possible? My sister has a new VW Polo with a 1.0L 65bhp engine, the official time to 60 is a glacial 16.5 seconds. I'm sure its acceleration profile would match that of a fully loaded HGV.

The time to turn, the time to break, way of turning lanes, all of it could be used to infer a vehicle type. I am not saying they do it, but it's likely.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#185

Post by cblades »

danw1979 wrote: post #177
kenned3 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These "NIMBY" people always make me laught. if you dont want to have a ton of traffic dont buy a house on a major road. There is a street on the subdivision i live in with the same issue. it is the main entry point to the subdivision. people bought houses there, then fought the city for years over traffic? they put up stop signs, speed bumps, etc. they wanted the lower house prices associated with living on main road…

I think the point is that residents of formerly quiet side streets are not happy about living on a Waze-induced thoroughfare... and understandably so, in my opinion.

I could understand not being happy about it, but I don't understand the desire to make google or waze be at fault here. Those drivers are ultimately responsible for where they drive, and in any case, the way they are using the roads is legal.

It would be irresponsible and make their respective apps uncompetitive if they arbitrarily chose to not give me the best route to my destination.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#186

Post by micael_dias »

fredophile wrote: post #134
tschwimmer wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once read (sorry can't find cite) that Waze and Google maps run roughly the same routing algorithm now, but Waze is hyper-optimized for time whereas Google maps is optimized for some nebulous quality akin to "fastest reasonable route" where unreasonable factors are things like using small roads, exiting and entering the high a bunch, extra turns, etc. So Waze probably is faster by a bit, but not a whole ton. In my…

My experience with Google Maps is that the accuracy is proportional to how close you are to Mountain View.

It's very accurate in Budapest so I don't think thats true.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#187

Post by usefulcat »

ascagnel_ wrote: post #174
floatingatoll wrote: post #150

It’s disappointing to see LADOT neglecting to use a road management tool already at their disposal to stop Waze’s abuse of their residential zones: No Thru Traffic. Posting NTT signs at entry points into residential neighborhoods and specifying even as little as a $5 fine would make entry for thru routing unlawful, stopping Waze. Whether or not the city enforces these signs would be irrelevant, as long as the traffic…

Posting signs would also mean dedicating police resources to enforcement, which tends to be a pretty unpopular use of public services. The proper option would be for Waze to work with LA/LADOT to mark roads, but it seems like they are either unable or actively hostile to resolving the core issue of overloading streets.

> Posting signs would also mean dedicating police resources to enforcement

How would it /necessarily/ require dedication of additional police resources? Are you implying that there is some actual or legal requirement for the city to do so?

If not, I don't see how posting a few more NTT signs is significantly different from the status quo, namely that there are already not enough police to enforce all traffic laws in all locations at all times.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#188

Post by petre »

2_listerine_pls wrote: post #184
gambiting wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that be possible? My sister has a new VW Polo with a 1.0L 65bhp engine, the official time to 60 is a glacial 16.5 seconds. I'm sure its acceleration profile would match that of a fully loaded HGV.

The time to turn, the time to break, way of turning lanes, all of it could be used to infer a vehicle type. I am not saying they do it, but it's likely.

It's quite error prone. I doubt they do it. Also deriving acceleration data requires sub second speed sampling. This needs to be done on device as it sends too much data sampling over the wire otherwise.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#189

Post by rahimnathwani »

simplesleeper wrote: post #80

Transport for London Tech Lead here. In London, we have been collaborating with google waze - we provide them with information at the local level. Streets that waze should not use for route finding (e.g. roads with schools) can be blocked for use by Waze. Both local councils and TfL can provide this data. The main difference between Waze and Google Maps is that Waze uses real time traffic data. There are multiple map…

"when the roads are mostly paid for by the cost of the London Underground"

Taxes on fuel used in motor vehicles (duties and VAT) are something like 30bn GBP/year in the UK.

London has about 1/6th of the UK's population, so let's assume 5bn/year comes from London.

That's 5x the annual operating profit of London Underground[0].

Government income and expenditure is fungible, so it's hard to determine precisely whether X is paid for by Y or by Z.

But it's clear that government revenue from London road users is much higher than the profit from London Underground.

So it seems strange to assert that roads are paid for mostly by London Underground.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20865111

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#190

Post by TheRealWatson »

krn wrote: post #114
Steve44 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main difference between Waze and Google Maps is that Waze uses real time traffic data. Google Maps has real time traffic data and the accuracy is staggering. I occasionally use Google Maps for navigation in the car and it even highlights traffic stationary at traffic lights and temporary road works as I’m approaching. This level or real time detail really amazed me. I’ve not spent any time looking onto how they…

> Google Maps has real time traffic data and the accuracy is staggering. But does Google Maps use real time traffic data to calculate the most optimal route in the same way as Waze does? As I understand, that's the main difference between the two.

Google Maps does real-time route correction based on traffic delays. I'm not sure about any rules applied for avoiding specific local streets but it definitely warns you about traffic ahead and suggests an alternative route. It also uses historic data to estimate travel times if you tell it when (day, time) you want to leave or when you want to arrive somewhere.

We like to think of all the NIMBY's and school streets but these types of "shortcuts" suggested by mapping apps is also what sometimes leads people into dangerous neighborhoods and tragic consequences.

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