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The growing science of memory manipulation

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#31

Post by hos234 »

slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

Whats preventing the gaslighters from being gaslighted? It's not a bad thing if we can change Putin or the Saudi Head Looneys memory and behavior. These kind of Debates always get won by the Edward Teller's in the room.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#32

Post by tsimionescu »

sysbin wrote: post #7

The next most interesting direction the researchers could go would be if deletion is possible. I’m assuming the question of deletion being even possible would be amazing to find certainty. I’m speculating for an existing memory to be deleted, it has to be rewritten and thus typical deletion is impossible without rewriting. Once all this is perfected, the future technology of brain interface for humans will have even…

I know this is all in the realm of pure speculation anyway, but why would you think it's plausible that a memory must be re-written instead of being deleted? People forget things all the time, so obviously you don't need to have an uninterrupted memory of your life so far. Are you simply thinking that memories only get deleted to make room for some other memories, not necessarily of the same events?

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#33

Post by coldtea »

hos234 wrote: post #31
slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

Whats preventing the gaslighters from being gaslighted? It's not a bad thing if we can change Putin or the Saudi Head Looneys memory and behavior. These kind of Debates always get won by the Edward Teller's in the room.

>Whats preventing the gaslighters from being gaslighted?

That they have the power...

>It's not a bad thing if we can change Putin or the Saudi Head Looneys memory and behavior.

LOL, if only the problem with gaslighters was just Putin or the Saudi Head Looneys...

How about your own government, mass media, big corporations, and so on?

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#34

Post by coldtea »

aussieguy1234 wrote: post #4

Just because an animal can't tell the difference between the real and artificial memory does not mean a human couldn't do the same. Using animals in research is generally inaccurate.

>Just because an animal can't tell the difference between the real and artificial memory does not mean a human couldn't do the same.

Well, humans have proven time and again not to be able to do the same, in other circumstances of fake memories...

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#35

Post by coldtea »

simonh wrote: post #20
npstr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A human is just an animal.

An animal with analytical and self-reflective mental faculties other animals do not seem to possess, or be able to articulate. For example, I know that some of my memories are not original. They are memories of me previously remembering something, which I was able to remember clearly at the time, but can’t recall as clearly now. But my memory of the experience of remembering it and the circumstances in which I did so…

>An animal with analytical and self-reflective mental faculties other animals do not seem to possess, or be able to articulate.

Which also makes it easier to rationalize the fake memory as real!

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#36

Post by simonh »

nine_k wrote: post #28
simonh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An animal with analytical and self-reflective mental faculties other animals do not seem to possess, or be able to articulate. For example, I know that some of my memories are not original. They are memories of me previously remembering something, which I was able to remember clearly at the time, but can’t recall as clearly now. But my memory of the experience of remembering it and the circumstances in which I did so…

Great apes, corvids, large parrots recognize their reflection in a mirror. Some of them are known to use tools in the wild. Cetaceans are officially recognized as conscious beings. What separates humans from animals is not a sharp edge, but something more like a smooth gradient.

None of which addresses the point in question. To re-iterate:

>Just because an animal can't tell the difference between the real and artificial memory does not mean a human couldn't do the same.

These animals seem to uncritically follow the artificially stimulated behaviour as though it was 'real' or original to them. It seems a reasonable suggestion that, perhaps, a human would be able to distinguish it from an original memory.

Are you suggesting that is wrong? If so sure, explain why.

It seems to me these objections are merely intellectual nit-pick points scoring, devoid of any actual critical or analytical point that I can discern.

It's just so tedious.

'people are animals too'

Genius! Now how about making an actual point?

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#37

Post by taneq »

slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

Is it possible that you're experiencing the Mandela Effect? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory#Mandela_Effect)

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#38

Post by wruza »

slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

But imagine having much better memories than you have now. It is much better to wake up and go to work knowing that you spent a good vacation last three month, than having boring eternal life of a regular worker with low wage. Forget that your SO cheated on you. Believe that all people are good.

If you’d sell memory tampering devices, are you sure that most of them would be used against someone other instead of on buyers themselves?

What if we had special devices that could sneakily push preferences or suggestions to unaware person? It would be a very dangerous tech! (Oh, nevermind, I use one of them to write this comment)

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#39

Post by sysbin »

tsimionescu wrote: post #32
sysbin wrote: post #7

The next most interesting direction the researchers could go would be if deletion is possible. I’m assuming the question of deletion being even possible would be amazing to find certainty. I’m speculating for an existing memory to be deleted, it has to be rewritten and thus typical deletion is impossible without rewriting. Once all this is perfected, the future technology of brain interface for humans will have even…

I know this is all in the realm of pure speculation anyway, but why would you think it's plausible that a memory must be re-written instead of being deleted? People forget things all the time, so obviously you don't need to have an uninterrupted memory of your life so far. Are you simply thinking that memories only get deleted to make room for some other memories, not necessarily of the same events?

My theory is re-writing is simpler, more efficient, basically elegant and all that's needed for achieving the task of producing a memory. I don't necessarily think forgetting an event is illustrating memories being deleted because the same result can be from re-writing neurons for newer memories.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#40

Post by weinzierl »

slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

In "Ghost in the Shell" there is a sub plot with a man who talks all day about his family until it is revealed to him that it is all false memories. I always found this one of the most horrifying scenes in the movie.
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