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Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

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Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#161

Post by Spivak »

willio58 wrote: post #153
geowwy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it had been SQL it would have been easy to drop in another database. Not true at all. Way too many organisations are locked into Oracle just because it's too hard to switch to something cheaper.

Why is this? If Oracle uses SQL why can you not just export the database, make some transformations, and import it into a PostgreSQL db for example?

I feel like you’re imagining that SQL is more of a standard interface than it actually is. No two relational databases are quite the same and you’ll be stuck combing through your entire app looking for obscure syntax usage that depends on Oracle specific extensions or quirks.

There’s no incentive to not extend or try to improve SQL semantics because for proprietary databases it increases lock-in which is good for sales and for OSS databases the extensions are genuinely positive and increase developer productivity and you don’t feel bad about locking your users in because it’s OSS.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#162

Post by tedivm »

trpc wrote: post #73
tedivm wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well here's the question- how are they getting exploited? If I release code for people to use for free, and people use it, where's the exploitation? I can understand why some people would not choose to give their code away for free, but trying to be both open source while having the benefits of being closed source seems like they are trying to exploit the open source community.

this is totally beyond me. So a company making a profit from a product made by another company by just hosting it is not exploitation? Does this happen in any industry? A company that makes product for free and another takes it as is and sells it is not an exploitation?

It isn't exploitation because it is literally part of the definition of open source that other people can use and profit off of the work. Linux has made more than one company rich- do we think Red Hat is exploiting Linux?

It's also unfair to pretend that companies who are setting up managed services are universally not contributing back- by open sourcing their code MongoDB has been able to benefit off of the issues that these other companies have found, often without having to do more than review a pull request.

There are benefits of open sourcing your code, just as their are downsides. Companies like MongoDB can't have their cake and eat it to- by closing their source code like they have they are exploiting the open source community. They spent years taking the benefits of the community, with the community having given them these benefits with the assumption that the community would be able to benefit from the openness of their code. MongoDB deciding to no longer offer a true open source option for their software is exploitative and a slap in the face to every open source developer.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#163

Post by peteretep »

chii wrote: post #71
smnrchrds wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cheapest option is 0.277$/hr just for the instance. https://aws.amazon.com/documentdb/pricing/

It's interesting that people would pay amazon, but not mongodb...

MongoDB Inc wrote MongoDB, which is a major black mark against them.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#164

Post by Spivak »

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #148
6nf wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why not just use a RDMS from day one?

A lot of people have difficulty trying to organize complex hierarchical data into rows and columns. A lot of places make you go through a dba to create or change a database which rubs power users the wrong way - and admittedly most of the dbas I’ve worked with are a lot more concerned with making backups fast then in your applications performance. Mongodb doesn’t make you do any of that. It doesn’t make you have auth…

I think it’s funny that web devs pretty much abandoned hierarchical databases since they are the OG database style.

I think it’s just going to take somebody shaking the cobwebs off of their X.500 manuals and making the query syntax and schemas a little more ergonomic for them to come back en vogue.

It’s one thing to have the ability to mold your DB to model hierarchical data but have your DB engine support it non-awkwardly might be a game changer. People are already used to apps needing a DB, cache, queues, S3, filesystem, service discovery, that adding one more thing would hardly break the bank.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#165

Post by Spivak »

xchaotic wrote: post #150
liability wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why use a relational store? If you’re working with a system that will only be read and written by an object based language? Why keep converting back and forth between a relational model and an object oriented model? Well I can't tell you what the right choice in your system is, but in the general case I think going with a relational model by default generally makes sense because it's rather future proof. By that I…

I think you got it backwards. A relational schema change is required and probably a data reindex or reload when you change a data model so relational is the least flexible as opposed to something like Mongo nosql?

If you’re just talking about storing and retrieving documents in a hierarchy with a semi-fixed format then aren’t you asking for a filesystem?

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#166

Post by Spooky23 »

nevi-me wrote: post #137
mbreese wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your choice is between (1) get MongoDB support from AWS and (2) get MongoDB support direct from MongoDB, the fact that Security, Cloud engineering and Finance know AWS and how to work in their environment seems to be the obvious choice. The difference between (1) and (2) is probably minimal enough to make the existing relationship with AWS meaningful. I don’t know enough about the costs of the two, but it’s possib…

My point is that those support functions' lack of understanding of realms outside of AWS shouldn't be the sole motivator for not using a technology. What happens if a company that uses Software A has good motivation to use B, but their support functions don't understand B? Aren't the support functions supposed to improve by seeking to understand B, even at the initial inconvenience of time and resources?

Don’t try to make sense of it, it doesn’t.

In a .gov environment, we literally paid 5x more for certain services because the contract terms demanded were too costly or onerous for OEMs to handle. So everything funneled through middlemen of dubious value, who basically borrowed money, pushed paper and carried insurance for a vig that pushed up the price.

The procurement people were very happy, because they got their three bids that varied less than 1%.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#167

Post by pfarnsworth »

thiscatis wrote: post #3

Would love to see an overview of companies that fell into the mongoDB trap and have / are migrating to another DB store.

Ubiquiti is one of those companies. They use MongoDB for their controller app, which has been a pain in my side for a couple of years now.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#168

Post by CryoLogic »

judge2020 wrote: post #141
Thorrez wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought the new license is just about offering MongoDB as a service by itself. But if you're making any other sort of website and use MongoDB as a database, you can still install it and use it for free. If the companies got lured into using MongoDB as a service, then I understand that prices could increase and companies could be in a pickle. But if companies got lured into using Mong…

You're correct, the new license only prevents AWS and other cloud from running the MongoDB software itself as a managed service unless they open-source their entire platform (although, as we see with DocumentDB, they can legally implement the API without the license coming into effect). The parent comment states "their sales people started coming around and asking for insane sums of money" but I can't find any refere…

This was my understanding of the license as well. I read through the block and it very clearly suggested only selling the database as a service was not okay. Using the database as a data store should be fine.

If MongoDB really is sending salespeople to make claims against companies who they convinced to use their OSS database as a data-store, than they are indeed abusing their license and no one should use their database or support their company.

From what I read of the license, that shouldn't be the case though.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#169

Post by isubasinghe »

geowwy wrote: post #142
zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of companies got lured into using mongodb because it was so developer friendly. It cost nothing and it was easy bring in the back door and alleviated the need for thought. Then their sales people started coming around and asking for insane sums of money (like $10,000 per instance per year plus 100% markup on hardware to run in AWS - support is extra). They were worried about amazon and others offering a better…

> If it had been SQL it would have been easy to drop in another database. Not true at all. Way too many organisations are locked into Oracle just because it's too hard to switch to something cheaper.

Well there is pl/sql for instance that oracle has, migration costs would be too high for most people. We use pl/sql extensively at work, I cannot even imagine the effort(time/money/people) it would take to migrate from oracle.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#170

Post by truth_seeker »

nevi-me wrote: post #110

I understand the removal of non-OSS-compliant software from core distributions, and see little controversy in that, as it's the risk of changing a license. What I don't understand is the many people who are talking about AWS' replacement being a solution for people migrating from MongoDB. From the comments, it seems: - it's expensive to use. Someone spent $15 for 2KB data over 3 days [ https://news.ycombinator.com/it…

Ditto
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