Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

github.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 291 posts

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#91

Post by trpc »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #82
trpc wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

afaik the user doesn't pay for MongoDB, you can use it freely, read the code, modify; if I understand correctly SSPL is basically AGPL/GPL but with clause that cloud vendors that want to use this product to provide a SaaS version must pay to the maker. I don't think this is any unfair esepcially if this project was made from scratch by the maker and not a fork off another OSS project.

Cloud vendors are "users", too. I'm not saying it's fair or unfair, just that it's not free. MongoDB is of course within their rights to charge to use their software, but they're not somehow being exploited by those who profit from it without paying — after they offered it for free! — when they themselves profit off the labor of the same people without compensating them. Put another way: Amazon is a corporate member…

Okay, what if I want to offer total freedom to users but not for other competing companies? There is no single license that can protect a company that creates a FOSS product. It's just ridiculous that a company creates a product for free and another uses it as is and sells it for profit by just "hosting" it. Esepcially for the case of a database, the only way to make money is by having managed service or licesning it to cloud vendors. I can't think of any other way of monetizing such a product

For the case of Amazon sponsoring linux, it's in the very interest of Amazon that Linux stays alive and active because all their billions from AWS comes by running linux kernel as infrastructure, not to mention having the advantage to influence the components being added and maintained that result directly in more profit for them. Linux foundation is totally different in its structure and goals from a for-profit company like Mongo.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#92

Post by marknadal »

oaththrowaway wrote: post #88
marknadal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to build drivers for MongoDB because it was so easy. MongoDB had a good run, I enjoyed it before migrating away. This license definitely hurts companies. What to? I built my own Open Source solution (MIT/Zlib/Apache2). Around same time Firebase was getting popular, and Graph databases were the way forward. Combined them all together, now have Internet Archive and HackerNoon running it ( https://github.com/amar…

I believe I saw you present at UtahJS a few years back. I was very impressed with your presentation about JavaScript performance. I think think about that talk every once in a while.

Thanks! I appreciate that :) JavaScript is not easy to get it to perform! :P

Link to tech talk for others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEqH-oZ4UXI

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#94

Post by 6nf »

scarface74 wrote: post #86
zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of companies got lured into using mongodb because it was so developer friendly. It cost nothing and it was easy bring in the back door and alleviated the need for thought. Then their sales people started coming around and asking for insane sums of money (like $10,000 per instance per year plus 100% markup on hardware to run in AWS - support is extra). They were worried about amazon and others offering a better…

But Mongodb is so different from anything else that you need a major rewrite to get away from it. Well actually.... One corner case. If you are using Mongo with the Mongo Linq driver in C#, you can switch it out for an RDMS without changing too much code with just a little foresight.

So why not just use a RDMS from day one?

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#95

Post by jakelazaroff »

trpc wrote: post #91
jakelazaroff wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloud vendors are "users", too. I'm not saying it's fair or unfair, just that it's not free. MongoDB is of course within their rights to charge to use their software, but they're not somehow being exploited by those who profit from it without paying — after they offered it for free! — when they themselves profit off the labor of the same people without compensating them. Put another way: Amazon is a corporate member…

Okay, what if I want to offer total freedom to users but not for other competing companies? There is no single license that can protect a company that creates a FOSS product. It's just ridiculous that a company creates a product for free and another uses it as is and sells it for profit by just "hosting" it. Esepcially for the case of a database, the only way to make money is by having managed service or licesning it…

> Esepcially for the case of a database, the only way to make money is by having managed service or licesning it to cloud vendors. I can't think of any other way of monetizing such a product

What about charging all their users? It's worked out fine for Oracle.

The current licensing scheme is fine, too. Again: no one has any issue with Mongo charging their users! It's just not open source software.

> For the case of Amazon sponsoring linux, it's because the very interest of Amazon that Linux stays alive and active because all their billions from AWS comes by running linux kernel as infrastructure, not to mention having the advantage to influence the components being added and maintained that result directly in more profit for them.

The question remains, though: why is it acceptable for Mongo to profit off Amazon's open-source contributions without compensating them (or at least donating to the projects themselves), but not vice versa?

> Linux foundation is totally different in its structure and goals from a for-profit company like Mongo.

I don't understand your point here. Mongo isn't owed anything extra just because they've decided to structure themselves as a for-profit company.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#96

Post by threeseed »

chii wrote: post #76
threeseed wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the GPL ethical ? It also gives you source code but attaches some pretty significant conditions that in most cases would prevent you from profiting from new code derived from it.

only if your source of profit is obtained by restricting the customer from being able to use your code in any way they see fit (including modifying it).

Most businesses make a profit by offering some unique product or service.

With the GPL someone could take your unique product, make it their product, undercut you on price and then put you out of business.

GPL is unquestionably great for consumers. Not so great for commercial businesses.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#97

Post by colordrops »

tedivm wrote: post #50
elamje wrote: post #30

What’s the executive summary of what’s going on with Mongo, and why other commenters are referring to using mongo as a mistake?

MongoDB changed their licensed from an open source license to one that has restrictions specifically aimed at busting up Mongo (the company)'s competitors who offer managed MongoDB services. These restrictions mean it is no longer an open source project. It is also worrying for a lot of people that mongo was willing to change license terms like this, as it means they may be willing to do so in the future if it brings…

Couldn't someone just fork on the last fully open source version of Mongo, similar to the genesis of CentOS?

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#98

Post by threeseed »

chii wrote: post #71
smnrchrds wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cheapest option is 0.277$/hr just for the instance. https://aws.amazon.com/documentdb/pricing/

It's interesting that people would pay amazon, but not mongodb...

I work in the enterprise and we spend tens of millions a year with AWS.

Our Security, Cloud Engineering and Finance teams understand VPC, IAM, Costs etc back to front and so when you add a new AWS product they know how to manage, secure, finance and support it. And of course there is no Procurement process with adding a new AWS product.

With a managed MongoDB (even though it's on AWS) you need to get buy in from dozens of people and go a vendor comparison to get through Procurement. It's why for many companies AWS dominates and in the future could well end up owning everything under the application layer.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#99

Post by scarface74 »

6nf wrote: post #94
scarface74 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Mongodb is so different from anything else that you need a major rewrite to get away from it. Well actually.... One corner case. If you are using Mongo with the Mongo Linq driver in C#, you can switch it out for an RDMS without changing too much code with just a little foresight.

So why not just use a RDMS from day one?

Because we had data that fit better in a non relational store. We stored data that created from user generated forms and we loaded data back into those forms.

Why use a relational store? If you’re working with a system that will only be read and written by an object based language? Why keep converting back and forth between a relational model and an object oriented model?

In C#

  var seniorMales = from c in context.Customers 
  where c.Age > 65 && c.Sex == “M”
Would be translated at runtime to either MongoQuery, Sql, a foreach loop, etc depending on what “context” represented.

You get autocomplete and compile time checks.

When you want to add an record to your Mongo collection, you work with strongly typed

  IMongoCollection
And the compiler will ensure that your collection stays consistent.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#100

Post by species9606 »

threeseed wrote: post #67
mfer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked at postgresql document store? Amazon put a mongodb API on that and made a service after all

1) No that's not what AWS did at all. They implemented the MongoDB API on top of their own storage layer. It doesn't use PostgreSQL. 2) Of course. But MongoDB is orders of magnitude faster in some cases, has better horizontal scalability capabilities, better drivers and some nicer semantics e.g. around streaming.

It’s webscale!
Post reply on HN