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Tired of Stack Overflow

arp242.net

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Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#231
Downvotes are useful for quality control, but there is no real difference between -3 and -4.

This and many others comprise examples of precisely how downvotes aren't useful for much of anything.

“How do I do X?”. Often, X is quite a simple thing, like “append to a list”, or “merge two dictionaries”. I find that the longer I program with all sorts of different languages, the more I struggle remembering all that sort of stuff.

You don't know a programming language if you need Stack Overflow to recall trivial things. I'd go as far to state that you're barely a programmer if you must have an Internet connection to program.

I'm of the opinion that Stack Overflow is primarily good for those who don't know and don't want to learn. That is, I've never used it for an APL question or an Ada question and not so for Common Lisp, either; note that these are all real languages, that are standardized, have books written about them, and have real documentation. So, if you want to play with JavaScript, then Stack Overflow seems like a good place, as that's a disgusting and poorly documented language, but real languages don't need this manner of thing.

The author fails to recognize that having a stupid little voting system and stupid Internet points is precisely the cause of the issue. I'm accustomed to anonymous communications and people get along just fine, in part because the only thing you can do to voice disagreement is to write an actual reply instead of clicking a stupid little button and, since you're not vying for stupid Internet points, you only write a response if you actually want to help someone, with no expectation of receiving anything except perhaps a Thank You. out of it.

The Vi & Vim Stack Exchange is much better in my opinion (I am a moderator there, so I may be biased). We actually had one user being a condescending prick for a while, so we kicked him off. The site has been much better ever since.

That's another issue with this garbage. You get cases of Oh, you're not violating any rules, but you're being mean by my own idea and since we have accounts and lasting reputations and I've been observing you, I've decided you're banned just because.; I'm accustomed to the old-fashioned notion of having real rules that are enforced consistently; you can't moderate anonymous messages by any other means.

So, in closing, you're likely only asking a question on Stack Overflow if you don't know what you're doing. Read a book or check the standards, instead. If your language doesn't have a standard or good books, learn a real language. If your standard is a pile of garbage, as the WWW is, then this would actually be a decent use of this tribal knowledge sharing, but the better solution is to avoid the garbage standard to start with.

I could refine this message, but I'm not particularly concerned. Surely I'm not the only one here who thinks similarly.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#232
Throwaway for reasons that will become obvious in this comment.

Stack Overflow could easily be exchanged with HN for some of the OP’s points.

I posted my first HN comment ever this morning after years of reading. I saw an interesting Show HN and decided to chip in my two cents. Suffice it to say that the content of the comment was on-topic and conscientious (if the tone of this post may serve as any indication).

Checking back within minutes, I had a karma of -1. Seeing as how new members start with a karma of 1, and posting gives you 1, this means I had been downvoted three times within those few minutes. This affected me much deeper than I could have imagined.

Having lurked on HN threads for a matter of years now upvoting insightful or illuminating comments, I found it jarring for my thoughts to be disqualified so quickly and thoroughly. My karma was not just rendered inert, but actively negative, draining.

This activated in me all manner of imposter syndrome and shame. Worse, though, was this total sense of helplessness, this feeling that as even a noob I have to be in on the secret handshake lest I be branded as someone who doesn’t get it.

I later combed through HN looking for general patterns in downvoting, and for every off-topic, non-contributory post was one like “depression is just the natural response to oppression” or any of the variations of “me too” that were spared a downvote. This helped me shift my thinking on this. I realized it was less about being on the outside of the exclusive club, and more about having been caught in the gears of the machinery that allows beginners to have experiences like this. It doesn’t make me feel better having reached a conclusion like this, and only makes me less likely to try again, but for the hope that the smattering of comments in this thread forming a connection between OP’s SO experience with HN starts a real conversation about this.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#233
post #21

This culture is why I've never contributed to Stack Overflow. I'm a reasonably senior engineer, I've been lucky to experience an extraordinary breadth of technology in my career, and I love helping people learn to program... but I just don't have the time or emotional energy for SO's top posters to pick apart the minutia of every word I say in an answer. The ROI for me is nil.

I tried contributing regularly on Stack Overflow a while back, and it just wasn't fulfilling to me. These days I just post follow-up comments mostly on topics which generally have light coverage anyways.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#234
Stack Overflow did a competent job at a community Q&A site, and marketed it well. I think the downside of it was that it was developed in the age of 'gamification', so it has a ton of badges and incentives for participating, but it incentivizes the wrong things.

It's still miles better than expertsexchange.com (the hyphen site), but is very biased towards first answers for doing kids homework.

The majority of questions I've asked there are when I seriously can't get to the bottom of a bug, and generally the answers aren't helpful like "you need to restructure your application".

Its value is really in simple, dumb answers, which as the author points out, is very useful when you have to jump between languages and don't quite remember the right idiom for pushing something onto an "array" in PHP vs using a stack elsewhere.

Like a lot of other web2.0 sites from the era, the incentive with reputation and badges is very effective at creating a community of people who want those points, but also offers a perverse incentive of racing to answer the easiest questions quickly.

Unless that question has been determined by the community to be low quality (in the case of the infinite loop homework question referenced in the article).

Like a lot of community sites where engagement gives you more privileges, there ends up being a meta-community of people with power dictating the tone and direction of the site, even if that is orthogonal to the actual goal of the site.

The other issue is that for a software dev Q&A site, it can be very hard to find / suss out current info. If I'm looking for an issue migrating to Hibernate 5, and the most popular answers are something using the XML configs and migrating to hibernate 3 from 2012, that's not really helpful, and I don't think the tagging/search combo from 2008 can filter for that.

I will say this, it seems to have avoided the tech forum pitfall of:

"I'm getting this error, can anyone help?

Edit: nm, figured it out."

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#235
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 rep doesn't matter at all for high-rank people, the rep loss should be based on total rep.

It should be something like 1% of your reputation. That’s significant enough to make even high-rank users have to think.

Forums require lots of downvotes to keep out the riff raff making them that precious would be a mistake.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#236
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely learned a lot of my attitudes about software engineering from "Joel on Software". It's weird to think that those works are "ancient" now. I don't really have an answer to the problem, SO has some very smart people working for them who, I'm sure, think about this issue. For some reason technical discussions held by competent people on the internet seem to trend towards dumpster fire. I've also noticed thi…

I expect to burn a few karma points on this, and be ignored, but all evidence I have says that this is human nature at work, and that at scale it cannot be prevented. I've seen moderators of small communities hold off the effect by setting a good example, using a deft touch, and not letting the community get too big. My suspicion is that once the number of commenters gets much past Dunbar's number [1], the universal…

I think there's something to this. Not sure if it's Dunbar's Number specifically, but something. It seems like there's a pattern where a community is nice and small, with people joining at a trickle. Things change when a jerk joins and starts doing jerk stuff. This tends to drive away the nice and helpful people, attract more jerks, and pushes people still there to be more jerk-ish themselves. Sometimes deft management can prevent it with some well-timed bannings, but I think this gets increasingly difficult as the community gets larger, and may be effectively impossible in internet-scale communities.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#237

I think you can argue the psychology and the merits of various ranking systems all day every day. I don’t think there is one correct answer and might work one moment on one population might not work for another population for even the same population at a later date. The OP might just be getting burned out on stack overflow -maybe time to take a break, scale back, or just do something new. I think stack overflow is a…

I suspect the author hit the Indian downvote brigades as well. The big issue I currently have with the Stack Overflow is that it seems like it has become some form of "scoring metric" for Indian programmers--presumably the consulting companies like Wipro. As such, if you don't immediately give a positive vote/response to even garbage answers, you get a downvote brigade burying the question. I suspect disallowing Indian IP's would improve Stack Overflow immensely, at this point.

The structural problem I have with Stack Overflow is that there is no way to wipe out outdated answers. There are lots of heavily upvoted answers that were correct but are now wrong, and there is no way to mark that.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#238
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Between the "why would you want to do this?" answers This is my pet peeve: WHY ... DO ... YOU ... CARE. Also, duplicates that not only are a completely different question but THIS question is ranked #1 by both DDG and Google.

> This is my pet peeve: WHY ... DO ... YOU ... CARE. Because of X/Y problems. People want to make sure the person asking the question is asking the right question (often, they are not). You see newbies a lot asking suspicious questions like "How do I extract the string between the carets in '>I want this string Of course, you could just answer it at face value. Or... you could ask why they are doing this. They might…

[deleted]

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#239
One thing I can't stand on SO are the people who do everything to write up an answer to a question according to the rules and standards, and want upvotes, while refusing to upvote the question they are answering because "it's not up to standard", basically not good enough.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#240
Every year I see a post complaining about how unfriendly Stack Overflow is, how their pet question got downvoted so unfairly, and how Stack Overflow is dying. Everyone agrees: Stack Overflow is too mean and is dying.

But time and again when I search for a question online if there's an SO version of it it has the best answer. And when I can't find an answer anywhere and I ask on SO I usually get a good answer quickly. (And when I don't I'm probably completely out of luck.)

Stack Overflow provides clear guidance on how to ask a good question. (https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask) As someone who occasionally answers questions there, I do feel annoyed when someone clearly didn't take any time or effort.

The first example from the article sounds reasonable at first, but are they asking for a shell command or some Go code or what? If they just said what they tried ("I expected it in `go help list` but didn't find it"), I think it would have been fine.

The second question I don't see why anyone would want that on the site. There's 1001 Github pages of common interview questions and answers that are more interesting and better written. Who could this be useful for other than the rest of that particular CS class? Why do I want to help someone I've never met cheat at a class I don't know about for free?

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