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Tired of Stack Overflow

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Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#181

Post by jolmg »

dragonwriter wrote: post #162
mceachen wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if downvotes led to a popdown, with a series of radio buttons: ( ) I don't agree with this comment ( ) This comment is factually incorrect ( ) This comment is offtopic ( ) This comment is rude or inappropriate (Add and replace verbiage to taste, of course) Then people's downvotes would be imbued with some semblance of nuance. And get rid of the score, and make downvote categories have hidden negative values (so…

> Then people's downvotes would be imbued with some semblance of nuance. Downvotes or not for nuance or dialog, that's what comments are for. Downvotes are solely to demote content that is viewed, in the subjective opinion of the voter, as not contributing to productive discussion. If it deserves a nuanced response then it doesn't deserve a downvote.

> Downvotes are solely to demote content that is viewed, in the subjective opinion of the voter, as not contributing to productive discussion.

Says who? It's not in the guidelines, so really when to use the feature is determined by its effects. Downvoting obscures comments and hurts a user's karma. So in reality, downvoting is to demote content you don't want yourself or others to see for whatever reason and/or to "hurt" (for lack of a better word) other users.

Your criteria of doing it based on whether it contributes to productive discussion fits in that, but it's not the only possible criteria users may determine for themselves.

mceachen's suggestion is to modify the effects to make the possible criteria space more narrow and more similar to the criteria you shared. When they see such a popdown, they'd have a better idea of what the downvote is meant to be used for. It would provide some guidance on the "proper" use of the feature.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#182

Post by Ensorceled »

nv-vn wrote: post #166

I'm glad to see that HN as a whole sees flaws in SO. I've avoided using SO as much as possible for years now and it seems like other people are coming to the same conclusions as I did. Between the "why would you want to do this?" answers and the downvoting beginner's questions and the "THIS IS A DUPLICATE" answers when the "duplicate" question is totally different and the "deleted as off-topic" on every interesting q…

> Between the "why would you want to do this?" answers

This is my pet peeve: WHY ... DO ... YOU ... CARE.

Also, duplicates that not only are a completely different question but THIS question is ranked #1 by both DDG and Google.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#183

Post by bewuethr »

rbonvall wrote: post #169
jxfreeman wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or downvote until the score is zero. I.e. don’t allow negative scores. Then take reputation away from people who actively attempt to downvote beyond zero. In addition, you use reputation to downvote.

Downvoting already has a small reputation cost: https://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-down

Not on questions, though.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#184

Post by prepend »

baud147258 wrote: post #116
prepend wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, I’ve been a reader for 10 years or however long, but their rules were too difficult for me to follow in order to vote. I had to visit every day and do menial, non-useful things just to be able to vote or answer. This didn’t work for me because SO wasn’t something I typically visited every day. So I just couldn’t get into the habit of being enough of a user to browse and vote so it was a vicious cycle of ap…

> their rules were too difficult for me to follow in order to vote. I had to visit every day and do menial, non-useful things just to be able to vote or answer Has it changed a few years ago? When I started 3 years ago, I could answer right from the start and I got the ability to vote quickly enough, after a pair of vote on an answer, without having to do menial tasks every day. Reputation can also be gained with edi…

That’s funny, maybe it did change. I haven’t tried in many years as I gave up.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#185

Post by klausjensen »

I have used SO since they opened.

These days, at least half of my questions get closed as off topic or marked as duplicate - and I always do a lot of research first - but sometimes I just do not know the right keyword to search for - or do not understand the deeply obscure limitations to what is considered on or off topic...

I will ask my question, hope to get an answer before it is closed.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#186

Post by masterjefferson »

jnovek wrote: post #21

This culture is why I've never contributed to Stack Overflow. I'm a reasonably senior engineer, I've been lucky to experience an extraordinary breadth of technology in my career, and I love helping people learn to program... but I just don't have the time or emotional energy for SO's top posters to pick apart the minutia of every word I say in an answer. The ROI for me is nil.

Same with me. I do sometimes answer questions if they fit into a niche I have some particular knowledge about, but on the whole I've found it to be a mostly negative experience contributing on SO.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#187

Post by microcolonel »

randcraw wrote: post #177
jasode wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If a question just straight up doesn't interest you or you don't want to answer it, then ignoring it rather than voting it down seems like the reasonable response. Just remember that if you don't give users a built-in and formal downvote button, they will rebel against that UI and invent an informal downvote mechanism to express their disapproval. E.g. a bunch of stackoverflow users would type "-1 downvote" in the c…

An alternative form of downvote is to reply with a negative comment. This makes a lot of sense since upvotes imply that you agree with all or most of the post while a downvote reveals nothing about what part of the post you dislike or why.

I've now for a couple years suggested that tweak to Hacker News, with the modification that either a refutation or an upvote on a refutation would qualify you to downvote.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#188

Post by galaxyLogic »

el_cujo wrote: post #16

I really think it's better to just have an up vote arrow and no down vote option, for questions at least. The only reason on a site like that to really vote something down should be if something is off topic or against the rules, in which case you have a report button. If a question just straight up doesn't interest you or you don't want to answer it, then ignoring it rather than voting it down seems like the reasona…

Yes I think "report" -button would be a much better solution.

But, it seems the company that owns Stack Overflow SAVES MONEY by not hiring people to filter out improper questions. Rather they rely on the free "help" of the community.

Which also means they can hide behind the community. It is not Stack Overflow that is rude to you, it is some users, some bad apples. SO takes no responsibility. And saves money.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#189

Post by Avamander »

will4274 wrote: post #180
Avamander wrote: post #3

> Can people truly not comprehend how downvoting a post to -20 (or more) is perceived by the author of that post? No, Stack Overflow high-rank users certainly do not. (A current community moderator literally said "Voting is not a friendly or unfriendly activity.") I've too suggested that the UI should be changed to be less abrasive and that high-rank people should be more accountable for their actions and been downvo…

> lack of empathy I think this interpretation is colored by your own bias. Downvotes only show a lack of empathy if downvotes are a social mechanism to comment on the asker, not the question. Particularly given that the SO guidelines explicitly say that downvotes are for the question, not the asker... I'm reminded of every stop sign I've ever stopped at in my life. Some asshole is always waving me ahead of them, even…

> Interpreting downvotes as a lack of empathy is the same sort of wrong reasoning as thinking that letting somebody go in front of you at a stop sign is considerate. It disregards the well documented and publicly posted rules for something you made up.

Interpreting downvotes as a considerate act is like stabbing tires on someone's car who just had a light go out. Saying nothing because downvotes don't give any useful signal at all, they don't even know you stabbed because a light doesn't work. And seeing stabbed tires doesn't really give people seeing the car an useful signal either, only maybe a sense of being in danger.

Re: Tired of Stack Overflow

#190

Post by Gibbon1 »

the_duke wrote: post #137
el_cujo wrote: post #16

I really think it's better to just have an up vote arrow and no down vote option, for questions at least. The only reason on a site like that to really vote something down should be if something is off topic or against the rules, in which case you have a report button. If a question just straight up doesn't interest you or you don't want to answer it, then ignoring it rather than voting it down seems like the reasona…

Agreed on no downvotes for questions. For answers, I would also do away with the downvote button, and offer multiple options instead, like: "does not answer the question", "misleading information", "off topic", "outdated", "i don't like the solution", ... . That would still give SO the capability to sort answers based on some quality ranking algorithm and hopefully reduce the unwarranted downvoting. PS, this line fro…

The problem. Stack Overflows commenting system is like a lawyers idea of fact finding. Everyone gives an answer and votes like a jury would with the mods acting as harsh judges. This is why SO just gets more and more toxic over time.

What you want is a communal Socratic method. Where everyone goes round and round till the community produces a good solid answer.

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