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The “mail is hard” myth

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Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#241

Post by al_form2000 »

roel_v wrote: post #31
swiley wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, it used to be pretty bad but the other year the people from the openbsd project wrote a new mail server with a trivially easy to understand config file (I wrote mine from scratch just a couple hours after finding it.) If you’re already basically competent with the OS you’re using and have a machine with a decent connection that can be used for mail then it actually isn’t hard.

The config file format is the least of your worries (unless you're running Sendmail, ofcourse). It's about havimg to know about DKIM/SPF/dns weirdness/ etc, and having to stay up to date; about blacklists and greylists and the social dynamics around it; about mailbox storage and backups and users complaining about quotas and attachment sizes and that sort of shenanigans; about how will I let my users set auto respond…

The config format is the least of your worries also if you're running sendmail - which I do.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#242

Post by kilburn »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #235
gfodor wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not once. Tbf, I am considering the herculean task of getting off of gmail, but if I were to go with my own server the burden has basically nothing to do with setting up the email server (easy) as this post might suggest, but instead the burden and latent risk involved of having to be personally responsible for operating, maintaining, and being exposed to externialities (like 0days, being blocked by filters, server o…

> being blocked by filters That's the part that I really don't understand. If the recipient hired someone to throw away their emails, why would that possibly be my job to rectify? I sent them a legitimate email, they hired someone who promised them to throw away spam, but obviously is incompetent at doing so, so it's up to them to hire someone else!?

Power relationships. Say the recipient is the client that represents 90% of your income. And the incompetent secretary is the boss's daughter.

Is it "up to them to hire someone else"? Totally. Will they? No. Your turn. Will you bend backwards to acommodate that client or will you drop it?

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#243

Post by al_form2000 »

ridaj wrote: post #27

To all the folks answering basically "yes it's hard" I think the headline is a bit clickbaity but there are some interesting takeaways... To summarize, (a) yes it's harder than setting up Big Corp Mail, but (b) a lot of the horror stories are either old or secondhand, and (c) it's a lot less hard to set up than it used to be. If the suggestion is, why not give it a try, one thing I feel is missed is, how hard is it n…

On redhat derived systems, setting up a basic mailserver was never harder (post 2010) than service "sendmail start & & service dovecot start" + adding a couple of DNS records. Not knowing this means not having done one's homework. Which is also a good indication that one should not be messing with email.

And knowing it is still being long way from running an effective mail server.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#245

Post by al_form2000 »

MiscIdeaMaker99 wrote: post #182
fit2rule wrote: post #157

Running your own mail server is like having a pet dog. You have to keep it in good shape, exercise it, feed it well .. chain it up when necessary, clean up after it and so on. Keep the neighbours kids from stealing it and using it to deliver drugs, etc. If you treat it like a pet, it makes it a lot easier to manager. "Oh, did I forget to check the mail logs this week", and so on..

I don't see self-hosting email as being any different than any other self-hosting service. I mean, take "mail server" out of our your analogy above, and replace it with "web server," and everything still applies.

No, it does not. Read the thread to know why.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#246

Post by al_form2000 »

eikenberry wrote: post #236
al_form2000 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UCEPROTECT was the pits and its operators were unprincipled lowlifes. Luckily they (like all the pay-to-delist BLs) never got more than minimal traction, so ignoring them and their BS mostly worked ('course you needed a /19 to be effective at doing that)

You use past tense... why? They still exist and seem to be continuing their blacklist/blackmail BS. The ISP in question was AT&T and their subsidiaries (I mostly got hit sending to bellsouth.net), which I wouldn't consider to be that small of an ISP and was enough that I eventually gave up.

Past (more than 5 years ago as I reckon) is when I locked horns with them. They may have switched policies, I may have gotten smarter than them, who knows.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#247

Post by ozim »

flurdy wrote: post #112

A mail server is hard. Writing applications is hard. Designing a website is hard. Professional work is hard. But setting up your initial mail server is not hard. Read some guides (ahem: https://flurdy.com/docs/postfix ), fix a lot of typos, and you're up an running. Same with developing the initial version of an application, or designing the first draft. Not rocket science. Not easy but not that hard for an experienc…

Running mail server is easy, if you do it for yourself. If you do it for "friends and family" it is not.

Not because DKIM and DMARC those you setup once and don't care.

Because doing something for people and for free is hard.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#248

Post by leepowers »

Email is hard across time. Meaning yes, I can setup a mail server, and yes I can configure DKIM+SPF, and yes I can initially get good delivery to all the major providers. But that's just the beginning. Email is an ongoing maintenance responsibility. And problems with mail delivery are almost always an emergency for yourself or your clients.

Nothing quite matches the gut punch of being on time for a deadline then having to push it back to troubleshoot mail problems. Or losing a weekend because while you know enough to get started your experience isn't deep enough to fix deliverability problems in a timely manner.

> I work on an opensource SMTP server. I build both opensource and proprietary solutions related to mail. I will likely open a commercial mail service next year.

Translation:

"I am an intelligent guy who works hard. My entire professional career is devoted to designing and maintaining mail systems. I work full time to achieve mastery of my craft. Yet I can't understand why people outside my specialization might find it difficult to do my job."

Email _is_ hard. That's why I'm very happy to outsource mail to experts like OP.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#249

Post by acidburnNSA »

scarface74 wrote: post #75
acidburnNSA wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, except to Charter, who has apparently just blacklisted swaths of DigitalOcean IPs, probably for some reason. So I just can't email my mom. Other than that, a great experience.

Except it doesn’t work to send an email to someone who I assume is important to you - “it’s a great experience”. Isn’t that an argument for why you shouldn’t run your own mail server?

Well I just have to do the one more step of forwarding the SMTP to sendgrid or whatever and then it will be top notch. It hasn't been enough of a pain for me yet to do that next step. I just signal her instead of email.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#250

Post by acidburnNSA »

Kaveren wrote: post #71
acidburnNSA wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, except to Charter, who has apparently just blacklisted swaths of DigitalOcean IPs, probably for some reason. So I just can't email my mom. Other than that, a great experience.

Are you using IPv6 or IPv4 to send the emails? DigitalOcean apparently blocks port 25 outbound IPv6 access because whole ranges are getting blocked.

I'm doing IPv4. The discussion is here: https://www.digitalocean.com/community/questions/is-anybody-...
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