The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever • Hacker News Board

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#51

Post by dharmon » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #23

The problem with inheritance taxes, property taxes, etc. is that they erode the meaning of ownership and permanence. For example, if I as a parent want to save up and give up my immediate gratification from spending that money so my children have a head start or even a luxurious cushion, what’s wrong with that? That’s me spending my utility the way I want. With property taxes, ownership turns into renting - you never…

You're treating ownership as if it's some natural right. It's not. The idea of property and ownership is a social construct, so it makes sense that society gets to determine the rules of this construct.

And society has generally determined that your "ownership" comes with a fee to cover the societal costs that make it all possible. E.g., car and house property taxes to cover police depts, fire depts, etc. Without which see how long your precious possessions last.

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#52

Post by throwawaysea » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

Raidion wrote: post #45

throwawaysea wrote: post #23

The problem with inheritance taxes, property taxes, etc. is that they erode the meaning of ownership and permanence. For example, if I as a parent want to save up and give up my immediate gratification from spending that money so my children have a head start or even a luxurious cushion, what’s wrong with that? That’s me spending my utility the way I want. With property taxes, ownership turns into renting - you never…

The argument against that would be that you can give your kid a luxurious cushion, you just don't get to give him 1000x what the average person would need. Keeping your kid safe from pretty much anything you went through doesn't require 80 billion dollars.

Why not? This seems arbitrary. If I earned it, I should be able to do whatever I want with it.

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#53

Post by danans » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:52 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #14

Why is inequality a problem if everyone else’s quality of life is improving? Poverty is lower than ever and most adults in developed countries have a smartphone, an unimaginable luxury that not even the richest could have twenty years ago. Things are good.

Some very important things have become hugely expensive, while other things have become incredibly cheap.

Housing near work opportunities, education, health care, and childcare are many times more expensive today than in the past, adjusted for inflation and purchasing power parity [1].

Smartphones are not a luxury today by the very definition of what a luxury is (something scarce and hence expensive). Likewise, entertainment and other diversion options have become very cheap.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost...

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#54

Post by adrianN » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:52 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #2

If we make more and more of the earth/universe usable for humans and only 'the rich' own these usables, why not?

The speed of light puts pretty hard limits on the amount of things you can meaningfully own.

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#55

Post by throwaway8278 » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #30

throwawaysea wrote: post #23

The problem with inheritance taxes, property taxes, etc. is that they erode the meaning of ownership and permanence. For example, if I as a parent want to save up and give up my immediate gratification from spending that money so my children have a head start or even a luxurious cushion, what’s wrong with that? That’s me spending my utility the way I want. With property taxes, ownership turns into renting - you never…

Sure thing, but what do we have now? Most people are only successful because of their inheritance. If you would be forbidden to give your kids more than a million that would solve that problem pretty well, I guess.

While this is a commonly believed myth, it is a myth. The vast majority of millionaires and other "wealthy" people are self made, not made from inheritance.

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#56

Post by barrkel » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #38

gerbilly wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with inheritance taxes, property taxes, etc. is that they erode the meaning of ownership and permanence. That's just it, we never really own anything anyway. If the rich are richer than us, it's because we gave our wealth to them, or rather let them take it. To he who has much, more will be given...

> it's because we gave their riches to them. This seems disconnected from reality. It is more accurate to say that they earned it through voluntary two party transactions.

You're dying of cancer. How much will you pay doctors / drug company to keep you alive? Is the transaction voluntary?

Think carefully what voluntary means. Many, if not most, people, in their daily lives, don't have much volition.

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#57

Post by nine_k » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

aledalgrande wrote: post #32

As much as in theory inheritance tax is a solution for the problem, I don't think in practice it works well. The ultra rich will always have avenues to escape tax. The middle class instead, trying to secure a better future for the family, will get hit the hardest. I am conflicted about this way of trying to solve the problem. Also, this is assuming the tax money gets used efficiently and not to the advantage of the t…

A half-way solution could be progressive inheritance tax, with a rather high bend point.

When a father who back in the day bought a house in Silicon Valley for $100k passes it to his child, the child does not pay a ton (or likely anything at all) from the few million of current value of the house.

When a parent passes a $10B enterprie to children, the children have to split and sell a part of the business to pay the inheritance tax. The children still retain a successful multi-billion business, but its market share becomes smaller, increasing the competition on the market.

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#58

Post by 52-6F-62 » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #29

quietthrow wrote: post #25

I see people throwing ideas and most of these ideas rely on politicians and/or govt doing something. Is there a non govt or non politician dependent way of solving inequality? facebook connected the world not govt or politicians. Google made knowledge and information available to the whole world not a politician or a govt. (I understand there are down sides to these companies products but so is there to govts/politic…

A political solution that doesn’t involve politicians or the government will just create its own politicians and government to sustain it. Look what happened during the American and French revolutions, or the Russian revolution. It always starts out as “we don’t need that” and in the end you simply recreate that.

Of all things there’s even a Family Guy episode about just that. They abolish the town government in a tea party/libertarian bid and just end up re-implementing everything to attain some modicum of order, agreement, and convenience for everyone.

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#59

Post by Ar-Curunir » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

nugget wrote: post #8

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also raise taxes on investment income and implement a land value tax.

I believe lower taxes stimulate productive investment of both human and financial capital so I'd prefer to lower income and investment taxes. But this only seems fair and sustainable if you raise the inheritance tax to a very high level. The problem isn't wealth so much as dynastic wealth. Land value tax I support 100%.

Everything happening around us indicates the opposite: that the rich prefer to invest in that which gets them richer, not that which benefits society.

Re: The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever

#60

Post by jpindar » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

bt848 wrote: post #28

throwawaysea wrote: post #14

Why is inequality a problem if everyone else’s quality of life is improving? Poverty is lower than ever and most adults in developed countries have a smartphone, an unimaginable luxury that not even the richest could have twenty years ago. Things are good.

In California's Bay Area there are people sleeping under bridges a few steps from houses that cost millions of dollars.

So burn the houses and make everyone homeless.