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The “mail is hard” myth

poolp.org

41–50 of 311 posts

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#41
Which user demographic is running one's own email server ideal for?

My consultancy handles "all things technology" for multiple small businesses (sized 1-50 people, located mostly in South Asia). Anecdotally:

A lot of these folks are happily using mybusinesname.accounts@gmail.com and so-on, but decide to get their own domain for the added veneer of "professionalism".

Many are happy to use Yandex (1000 users with your own domain for free @10GB/inbox. Probably not appealing for some Americans given US-Russia political issues).

Startups/sole entrepreneurs typically come to us after they've purchased a GoDaddy domain and selected the "Business Email" option upon checkout, so they just continue using it.

There's a small sample of companies who are willing to pay for Google Apps because they like Gmail's web UI, and they want the rest of the Apps Suite too.

We also deal with a lot of local big corporations for project work. They're almost always using some kind of in-house corporate email system running Microsoft Exchange Server with a number of different rules like no attachments over 5 MB and other such silliness.

For us to invest time in setting up a mail server for a customer there would have to be a very rare confluence of:

a) I don't want Yandex

b) I don't want to pay for Google Apps / Zoho / other

c) (Optionally) I want to send 500000 marketing/transactional emails per day but I don't want to pay Sendgrid/Mailgun/Mailchimp/SES

To set it up we'd have to establish pricing and SLA. Would I agree that we do it for less than $5/user/month? Nope!

I can't really see a compelling case to do it unless you're a hobbyist with strong philosophical perspectives on this topic. Maybe my point of view is different because of Geography but I doubt things are very different elsewhere in the world as far as cost/effort is concerned.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#42

Fun thought experiment. Let's rephrase hard. If you have to hire a team to manage your email for you, how much would it cost you? The author of the post just explained how most of his friends think this is hard. I don't think email is very hard. But the ROI of doing this in-house is insanely terrible.

One person a few days a year.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#43
post #11
post #4

It's not 'hard', it's 'a gigantic pain in the ass' which is (in normal word use) one form of 'hard'. Which is why most sane people stopped doing it themselves say 15 years ago. Especially for the few cents you can get professional 3rd party email hosting for. Edit: I also very much like the disingenuity of articles saying 'X isnt' hard! Just execute these 20 commands!' Duh, executing those commands isn't the problem,…

Eh, it used to be pretty bad but the other year the people from the openbsd project wrote a new mail server with a trivially easy to understand config file (I wrote mine from scratch just a couple hours after finding it.) If you’re already basically competent with the OS you’re using and have a machine with a decent connection that can be used for mail then it actually isn’t hard.

Config files really are not the problem with running email. The "why the hell is provider/BigCo/... XYZ rejecting our emails again" dance is, with the answer typically being "no clue, they certainly won't tell us, let's hope it works in 48 hours?"...

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#45
post #10

> but my mails will not reach my users at Big Mailer Corps Unfortunately this is not a myth. rDNS/DKIM/SPF/not in any greylists, but mail from you goes to Junk folder on GMail®, experienced that myself.

A lot of mail from a variety of providers won't be accepted by gmail. That's the downside of gmail.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#46
post #4

It's not 'hard', it's 'a gigantic pain in the ass' which is (in normal word use) one form of 'hard'. Which is why most sane people stopped doing it themselves say 15 years ago. Especially for the few cents you can get professional 3rd party email hosting for. Edit: I also very much like the disingenuity of articles saying 'X isnt' hard! Just execute these 20 commands!' Duh, executing those commands isn't the problem,…

gigantic pain in the ass correlated to very little money for the effort because come on it's email, which isn't hard.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#47
I have run my own mail server for years. It absolutely was complicated for me to set up but I loved the process of learning and got it going without too much trouble. Now I can get mail delivered to nearly everyone, except Charter. It's been NBD from a maintenance point of view. Spam is all tuned nicely and I generally don't have to think of it.

E-mail servers are complicated. People with skills and interest can do them, no problem. It's not overly hard. I agree with that.

But I sure don't go recommending it to my friends who wouldn't appreciate spending a few days learning and setting all that up.

What I can do, however, is offer them e-mail accounts! So I guess as long as every group of 50-100 friends has one person willing to run an e-mail server, then we're all good. Of course, it'd probably be a pain to switch when that person dies or loses interest.

Maybe we just need to make it really easy to have a email@myname.tld that is portable and easy to move around.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#48
OT:

Thunderbird org should create/sponsor its own email server software.

That's the way to spur email development by causing development on both sides of the chain. Sometimes in unison.

And they should also initiate an email service to put their development in action.

Imagine the innovation that could happen then.

- Email encryption standards for key acquisitions

- folders/labels stored as imap keywords

- large file sending protocol using third party services

- msg retrieval when email severs experience outages

- development in mail list servers.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#49
post #4

It's not 'hard', it's 'a gigantic pain in the ass' which is (in normal word use) one form of 'hard'. Which is why most sane people stopped doing it themselves say 15 years ago. Especially for the few cents you can get professional 3rd party email hosting for. Edit: I also very much like the disingenuity of articles saying 'X isnt' hard! Just execute these 20 commands!' Duh, executing those commands isn't the problem,…

> it's 'a gigantic pain in the ass' which is (in normal word use) one form of 'hard'. Which is why most sane people stopped doing it themselves say 15 years ago

I've been running my own mail server since 2000 or so. It isn't hard, it takes almost no time at all, and I have my own independent mail that nobody reads, and I make the decision of which mail to accept.

I will take the liberty of classifying the above comment as FUD.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#50

Let's see... Postfix, Dovecot, SPF and OpenDKIM on the server-side, each of them with their own config. Then you've got to set up your domain, and domain headers on your domain host. Oh, DMARC is also another thing. Then, most ISPs will outright refuse to accept incoming mail from your IP address, since they've basically changed from blacklisting to whitelisting. So you've also got to relay your outgoing mail via you…

And if you try to host it on Digital Ocean, they actually block port 25 out, so you're out of luck...

And you have to manage diskspace, backups, firewall/fail2ban, OS updates etc etc etc

I'm in the same boat as you. Managed to grind my teeth and pull through something like this for my own use and family, but it was painful.

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