systemd is good for desktop and server systems. But i was seeing that in Embedding Linux or IoT distributions that doesn't make sense since they're run on limited resources.
My smartwatch seems to run fine with it.
Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
81–90 of 191 posts
Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
#82Has anyone used Knoppix lately? It has so much pointless junk in it, I do not see the argument against systemd.
Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know what you're doing to start your web/app server, but for eg. apache httpd it's a matter of sudo apachectl start (and likewise for all SysV-like startup scripts). For node, it's node (or rather using node-forever or node-cluster in prod). If you want to have it started on boot automatically, you put that line into your startup script. It doesn't get any more simple and transparent than that. Why would you…
If you do `sudo apache start` in production, how do you do it? Log in to the server and type it in? What about log and metrics agents, how do you start and configure those? Also why are you so judgemental? I don't want Debian and rhel to diverge because I have clients who use both and I don't want to have to do more work to support both.
Sorry I didn't want to sound judgemental. My point was that your argument, taken to the extreme, undermines having multiple Linux distributions in the first place. Which is exactly the embrace-extend-extinguish aspect being talked about elsewhere in this thread.
Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
#84Irrelevant distro abandons core element of all platforms. Next Lada abandons motors and goes to foot pedal acceleration or what?
If you want to gain users again you should search for innovation, not abandon it.
Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honestly, I much prefer systemd timers over cron. They work just like systemd units and shed all the odd special cases that cron accumulated over the years. They’re pretty well defined in how they behave in face of systems being down while a job was supposed to run (more a desktop thing, but relevant for some server cases as well). It makes sense to use the same config mechanism. Still, systemd timers are exposed to…
Anybody that has used time units will never use cron again.
Especially once you’ve been bitten by such interesting things as crons interpretation of % signs.
Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
#86Good - but I wish that change would have been coordinated with Devuan instead of duplicating the effort. And by the way - if you're doing something Debian-based - make it Devuan-based, it's pretty straightforward. http://www.devuan.org/
>if you're doing something Debian-based - make it Devuan-based, it's pretty straightforward.
It's also pretty straightforward to switch Debian systems back to sysvinit.
Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you are missing the point: Something like systemd has a good reason to exist. But the devil is in the creating team. We've seen pulseaudio, a good system in theory, but an untrustworthy unstable system in practice. And if it wont work, it is so complicated and non-transparent that you need a specialist. Taking a step backward from Alsa is hard, and they managed to do it. Now that same team is messing with sys…
> We've seen pulseaudio, a good system in theory, but an untrustworthy unstable system in practice. systemd has been out for so long that I'm pretty sure we can judge it by its own merits now. As someone who maintains a few thousand servers but only uses desktop Linux on one non-primary machine, I have a lot more well-informed opinions on the trustworthiness and stability of systemd than of PulseAudio. (And besides,…
Very well put.
IME talking with our sysadmins face-to-face, I think a lot of the initial hostility was caused by emotional reactions like: This is different, I don't like it! (Don't get me wrong, it's a behavioral pattern that makes sense up to a point.). I think everybody I've spoken to actually ends up appreciating a lot of things about systemd. (But in these situations, I happened to be their employer, so that definitely biases the conversation even if these conversations weren't really about anything related to their job situation, specifically.)
I also get the impression that a big part of this is due to a lack of 'patterns' or easy recipes to get as much info as possible from the journal. Everybody can intuit the workings and benefits of a text file, but text files have drawbacks that are very subtle and hard to intuit at a visceral level. I think this is partially a lack of good defaults for journalctl. I think it would be better if it (by default) showed much more information and allowed users to turn off unwanted info.
Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's complex because it does a complex work Hence it's pointless because it doesn't make things any simpler. All it does is making things monolithic and wrapping concepts that are perfectly fine by themselves, forcing third-party software to write to systemd's APIs. > Systemd actually does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system. "Managing systems" is not what is meant by "doing one thing, and doing it we…
As an end user, meaning a web app developer, I actually like systemd a lot. I perceive the software quality to be good enough. I've used it in production since 2014 and encountered zero bugs. It does seem to me to be vastly simpler compared to the old way of doing things. I don't really feel strongly either way. I'll be pretty sad if Debian and redhat diverge.
And that is exactly the marketing card that have been played. The dev out numbers the sysadmin and ask for SystemD. Then it's to the sysadmin to live with the numerous bugs and non-standard and hardly documented ways of the Beast.
Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
>The trend to get rid of systemd and its metastasis into most of Linux is excellent news. I don't know where you're seeing this trend, really. For all major distros, it's been the opposite thus far.
However it's slowing changing. Knoppix has always been seen as a trend setter, and it still has a large influence where it matters - open source maintainers that are not corporate-driven (i.e. Debian).
This clashes with my worldview. Knoppix hasn't felt relevant in at least a decade, and if there's influence to Debian, I don't see it.
Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd
#90Everything I know about systemd is bad.
When I want to write a script that runs on startup, I expect that I can just put (or link) it in some directory where the scripts are that get started on startup. Or that there is one main script that calls all scripts that are intended to be startet on startup.
I do not want to write a "service" that has some "only run once and then discard" flag or whatever.
When I want to look at logs, I want to use the tools I like. less, grep, tail etc. I do not want to dabble with some binary format and its tooling.
When I want to start or stop a service, I want to call a script that does that. A script which I can look at and see what it does. Like /etc/init.d/apache2. I do not want to execute some magic command like "service apache start" which I have to guess or look up and which gives me no clue about what it does.