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Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

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Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#61
post #37

systemd is good for desktop and server systems. But i was seeing that in Embedding Linux or IoT distributions that doesn't make sense since they're run on limited resources.

Well, systemd is great for responding to events (like devices and networks going up/down) so it seems like a good fit for embedded/IoT. If anything it'd be bad for servers since those are (usually) basically a couple of services and daemons brought up at boot and not changed during runtime, with a few interfaces that never change.

Systemd is not that heavy to run when configured correctly (which is what the distro should do).

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#62
The fact that we're still having _this_ conversation, after after a decade since being released and years after mass adoption, should say a lot. I can't think of any other software I have to use on a daily basis that gets so much heat, every time it comes up. One can make all the arguments for it they want but the continued public comtempt means something.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#63
post #37

systemd is good for desktop and server systems. But i was seeing that in Embedding Linux or IoT distributions that doesn't make sense since they're run on limited resources.

No, it's bad for desktop and server systems. It has a lot of bugs and mis-features, and ties too much functionality together.

I've been professionally maintaining large deployments (thousands of machines) using systemd for years now, as well running systemd on my Linux desktop for as long as upstream has defaulted to it, and I can't recall a single bug or a single negative business impact from tying too many features together. I recall on multiple times wanting to upgrade but I'm pretty sure it was always because I wanted fancy new features, not for a bug.

(That's not to say systemd has no bugs. I expect it does. We either just didn't run into them, or we tested whatever complex thing we wanted to do—far more than could be expressed in any other init system, process keeper, or systemd competitor—found it didn't work, and moved on. That would be indistinguishable from systemd intentionally not having some fancy feature, and it definitely didn't affect us in production.)

Meanwhile, I can remember numerous concrete bugs in the Linux kernel, concrete misfeatures, and downsides from having a monolithic kernel where if one thing goes south everything does. But nobody warns me to avoid Linux....

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#64
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's complex because it does a complex work Hence it's pointless because it doesn't make things any simpler. All it does is making things monolithic and wrapping concepts that are perfectly fine by themselves, forcing third-party software to write to systemd's APIs. > Systemd actually does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system. "Managing systems" is not what is meant by "doing one thing, and doing it we…

As an end user, meaning a web app developer, I actually like systemd a lot. I perceive the software quality to be good enough. I've used it in production since 2014 and encountered zero bugs. It does seem to me to be vastly simpler compared to the old way of doing things. I don't really feel strongly either way. I'll be pretty sad if Debian and redhat diverge.

I don't know what you're doing to start your web/app server, but for eg. apache httpd it's a matter of

    sudo apachectl start
(and likewise for all SysV-like startup scripts). For node, it's

    node 
(or rather using node-forever or node-cluster in prod). If you want to have it started on boot automatically, you put that line into your startup script. It doesn't get any more simple and transparent than that.

Why would you be sad if Debian and RH diverge? Linux started as a one-man show and became a huge community effort because it could run a wealth of F/OSS software. If you want a single-vendor OS, there's Windows, Mac OS, the BSDs, and others. Or maybe IBM RHEL in the future.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#65
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemd is Red Hat’s version of the old “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook.

No it isn’t. Firstly: they weren’t the originators of systemd, they simply hired the guy who first developed it to continue developing it. Secondly: it: being open source and GPL, anybody can use it or fork it and not be due anything to Red Hat. Thirdly, it isn’t extinguishing anything as a business strategy ; it’s just out-competing alternatives in the “mindshare” arena.

> it being open source and GPL, anybody can use it or fork it

The entire point of the EEE strategy is to capture protocols or standards, such as software developed by other companies or free software developed under the GPL. Forking isn't a relevant option, because the other parties software is not changed (it's expected to not be able to change).

From Microsoft employee Ronald Alepin's sworn expert testimony[1] in Comes v. Microsoft:

    Q. Okay. And now, again, for the Jury, what does embrace mean in
       this context as used by Microsoft employees?

    A. It's used to indicate a strategy where Microsoft will embrace
       the standards or the specifications and interfaces of another
       company's software.

    Q. Okay. And what does extend refer to?

    A. Once the specifications have been embraced, then Microsoft will
       extend them and add additional interfaces proprietary to Microsoft.

    Q. Okay. When you say add additional proprietary interfaces that
       are Microsoft's, what impact does that have technologically to
       other ISVs and OEMs?

    A. Well, the result is or the impact is that what was once sort of
       community development property, the work of the industry and
       industry participants is appropriated essentially, is taken over
       by Microsoft.

       And then Microsoft takes it and with its proprietary extensions,
       makes it essentially unavailable on a going-forward basis to the
       industry participants who were responsible for first developing
       the specifications and the standards.

    Q. Okay. And when Microsoft makes those APIs unavailable to certain
       ISVs and OEMs, what's the impact to those ISVs and OEMs of their
       ability technologically to create products?

    A. It reduces their ability to create products, especially products
       that will interoperate with Microsoft's products.
Examples of this strategy include Mirosoft's attempts to capture the Kerberos protocol and Java. In both examples Microsoft first embraced existing software outside their control by writing their own implementation, then added non-standard features that were only available in their implementation and a clause in their EULA that forbid anybody that used their implementation from re-implementing the features in other (original) software. The GPL doesn't help here, because Microsoft never touched the original free/open implementation, which continued to exist but was now incompatible with Microsoft's software.

While the systemd situation is a little different (it isn't trying to take over "another company's" software, systemd de facto IS somewhat similar to the EEE strategy. They initially embraced existing open standards common in Linux distros, and then extended various parts of their implementation intentionally[2] incompatible changes that had the de facto effect of "reduc[ing] [the] ability to create [non-systemd distros], especially [distros] that will interoperate with [systemd]"[3]. It's not exactly EEE, but there are strong similarities with new features used as a barrier to interoperability.

[1] http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20070108020408...

[2] e.g. GNOME depending on the systemd-specific version of existing features that made running GNOME without systemd very difficult.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#66
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of features and stuff they add to systemd is seriously impressive. They have bugs sometimes, but I have been running it in production for years and years and never had a real issue. Its an incredibly stable system. Sometimes a new version has a bug because systemd has to work in so many context, those get fixed very quickly generally. I would challange anybody, to introduce a totally new system layer on li…

I think Poettering deserved his fair share of the blame for the problems in Pulse Audio. However, a guy writes an over ambitious project, has a lot of problems, has problems with interfacing with users, etc, etc, etc. This is the internet! Pick a random project an Github and you'll probably find similar issues. The real problem here was Red Hat -- and it was literally the same problem with systemd. They tied it so cl…

> The real problem here was Red Hat...

Agreed. This is Red Hat's mentality with a lot of it's product base. Poettering and Dan Walsh come to mind with regard to the elitist attitude in their respective corners. But just wait, this is going to get worse. Now that IBM owns them they will push this agenda even harder. The new game is controlling a majority of devs in well-known or strategic projects so the overarching enterprise can push an agenda. I don't think we're seeing the teeth quite yet, but give IBM a few years and my guess is it becomes very obvious.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#67
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an end user, meaning a web app developer, I actually like systemd a lot. I perceive the software quality to be good enough. I've used it in production since 2014 and encountered zero bugs. It does seem to me to be vastly simpler compared to the old way of doing things. I don't really feel strongly either way. I'll be pretty sad if Debian and redhat diverge.

I don't know what you're doing to start your web/app server, but for eg. apache httpd it's a matter of sudo apachectl start (and likewise for all SysV-like startup scripts). For node, it's node (or rather using node-forever or node-cluster in prod). If you want to have it started on boot automatically, you put that line into your startup script. It doesn't get any more simple and transparent than that. Why would you…

If you do `sudo apache start` in production, how do you do it? Log in to the server and type it in?

What about log and metrics agents, how do you start and configure those?

Also why are you so judgemental? I don't want Debian and rhel to diverge because I have clients who use both and I don't want to have to do more work to support both.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#68
post #3

I see a lot of hate about systems and I used to loathe it too. Then I took a course on systemd specifically and it opened my eyes, and now I'm quite fond about it. Systemd actually does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system. It's the missing layer between kernel space and user space. It has quirks and bugs like all software, but I think it works very well, all things considered. To those who say that it's…

No, systemd does many other things than just managing the system. It provides time, dns, dhcp and other services. None of which is required for achiving what it is suppsed to do: managing unix services.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#70
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of features and stuff they add to systemd is seriously impressive. They have bugs sometimes, but I have been running it in production for years and years and never had a real issue. Its an incredibly stable system. Sometimes a new version has a bug because systemd has to work in so many context, those get fixed very quickly generally. I would challange anybody, to introduce a totally new system layer on li…

Finally moving to an OS with systemd as the init system cost my team two months of platform stability. Every time we thought we had fiund the magic order or operations incantation and fire things up, we'd find a new poorly documented config item that had to be mucked with. Nothing so fundamental as starting a set of services should be that hard. SystemD has a few nice features but none of them are worth the headache.…

I hope that some of the other distros follow this move of Knoppix. I have had exactly the same experience with SystemD like you. The good parts of systems: standard simple format for describing unix services instead of shell scripts. Everything else they do is just crazy. The amount of CPU it uses also crazy.
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