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Hiring Is Broken?

software.rajivprab.com

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Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#101

Post by o10449366 »

z3t4 wrote: post #92
o10449366 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could the system be better? Yes. But there's also a ridiculous amount of entitlement in the tech industry. There are very few other industries where someone with a bachelors degree or no college degree at all can obtain a low to mid six figure job with no prior work experience + benefits. Even for the average experienced hire, who's compensation can easily exceed that of the average doctor, it isn't like things get w…

Google would have no problem paying out 7 figure, they would pay out 8 figure if they had to. But its a market and no other pays that well. Just go outside SF and the market is different, much lower pay, but they are just as picky.

no other pays that well != the other markets don't pay well

Perhaps you're speaking from the perspective of dev jobs in Europe, or just outside the US, but even in the midwest where the only "tech" companies are really just the largest commerce/healthcare/financial institutions, dev jobs still pay $75,000+ for entry-level positions. Ignoring the fact that cost of living and taxes are way lower in the midwest than they are on the coasts, it's still a fact that with just a bachelors degree computer science opens up a plethora of opportunities.

If the price to pay is grinding Leetcode problems for a few weeks that's a pretty small price to pay. Honestly.

Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#102

Post by esotericn »

Apocryphon wrote: post #95
esotericn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think of it as entitlement so much as a refusal to see the world as it is. There are a trillion arbitrary signals that will help or hinder your success in various ways. Physical attractiveness, gender, race, parental background, your nationality, where you can work, your accent, language... the list is honestly almost endless. You can wish for a world in which none of this were true, or do your best to find a…

The tech industry, and Silicon Valley in particular, has long pretended to be an ultra-rational meritocracy. Some people buy into the rhetoric, and get bitterly disappointed when proven wrong. If the industry didn’t feed the myth, perhaps people would have less of an emotional reaction.

I say this without meaning to be offensive, but surely it's blindingly obvious that this isn't the case?

For all of the reasons I stated above?

I think you'd have to be severely mentally deficient in order to think that commercial software development operates in some sort of strict high score board fashion.

OSS development I think is significantly closer if you allow for the sampling bias that only certain groups have enough time to contribute.

Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#103

Post by Apocryphon »

esotericn wrote: post #102
Apocryphon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech industry, and Silicon Valley in particular, has long pretended to be an ultra-rational meritocracy. Some people buy into the rhetoric, and get bitterly disappointed when proven wrong. If the industry didn’t feed the myth, perhaps people would have less of an emotional reaction.

I say this without meaning to be offensive, but surely it's blindingly obvious that this isn't the case? For all of the reasons I stated above? I think you'd have to be severely mentally deficient in order to think that commercial software development operates in some sort of strict high score board fashion. OSS development I think is significantly closer if you allow for the sampling bias that only certain groups ha…

I think the power of myth and marketing are far more powerful than you expect, especially those who pivot into tech via boot camps and such as an attempt to find a better field to work in. People flocking into tech seem to buy into the concept that the meritocracy will reward them. And unrelated to hiring, tech CEOs are often still regarded as ultra-rational geniuses despite some blowback.

Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#104

Post by akhilcacharya »

otras wrote: post #82
akhilcacharya wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a popular sentiment but it’s still false. A hiring committee isn’t going to pass you if you don’t finish the problem (ideally multiple problems) optimally.

For a counter example, I know that I didn’t finish a problem but did make it through. I’m not sure such blanket statements apply.

Your experience is highly atypical

Without a flawless performance it’s unlikely for most people to get offers.

Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#105

Post by dahart »

username90 wrote: post #98
dahart wrote: post #87

> Anyone can glamorize and exaggerate the work they have done, and make it sound a lot more impressive than it actually was My personal experience interviewing is that people cannot easily glamorize their past projects when pressed for details. It might be easy to make it look good on a resume, but hard in person during a discussion with follow up questions. I think asking about past projects is a fantastic interview…

Or they could just lie and tell you from the perspective of another dev on their team, or even combining the achievements from several of them at once. Of course most people wont lie a lot but this style heavily favors those who do so you will get a disproportionate amount of liars on your team.

I think your assumption is incorrect, based on my own experience. I’ve never hired a liar, and I’ve hired a lot of people. I have, however, declined to hire people who failed to answer follow up questions honestly or appeared to not be able to explain their success.

Anyone who wants a job knows it’s a bad idea to lie because you find out immediately once you hire someone whether they are lying, and it would be grounds for immediate firing. Also follow-up questions weed out lies & half-truths very quickly. You should try it, see how long you can answer probing questions about someone else’s experience. I agree that most people won’t lie, and what does happen is almost always not lying but just spin, trying to glamorize rather than outright fabricate. My experience is that people get honest about their glamorizing very quickly if I keep asking more questions.

Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#106

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

o10449366 wrote: post #101
z3t4 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google would have no problem paying out 7 figure, they would pay out 8 figure if they had to. But its a market and no other pays that well. Just go outside SF and the market is different, much lower pay, but they are just as picky.

no other pays that well != the other markets don't pay well Perhaps you're speaking from the perspective of dev jobs in Europe, or just outside the US, but even in the midwest where the only "tech" companies are really just the largest commerce/healthcare/financial institutions, dev jobs still pay $75,000+ for entry-level positions. Ignoring the fact that cost of living and taxes are way lower in the midwest than the…

Not GP, but in Europe definitely nobody starts at 75k, not even in the big metro areas with high COL.

And the commerce/healthcare/financial enterprises that you mentioned are really picky and don't even care about leetcode, they filter based on resume prestige like law firms. Without connections, having attended a prestigious University or experience at other fancy companies you ain't getting your foot in the door regardless of your leetcode level.

If you've only been coding at mom & pop corner shops, you'll be doing that for a long time as most big enetrprises you mentioned won't even look at your resume.

Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#107

Post by wslh »

username90 wrote: post #98
dahart wrote: post #87

> Anyone can glamorize and exaggerate the work they have done, and make it sound a lot more impressive than it actually was My personal experience interviewing is that people cannot easily glamorize their past projects when pressed for details. It might be easy to make it look good on a resume, but hard in person during a discussion with follow up questions. I think asking about past projects is a fantastic interview…

Or they could just lie and tell you from the perspective of another dev on their team, or even combining the achievements from several of them at once. Of course most people wont lie a lot but this style heavily favors those who do so you will get a disproportionate amount of liars on your team.

You can discover the lie asking very technical questions on how the solved some issue. They will answer at the greatest level of detail if they did it themselves.

Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#108

Post by adamredwoods »

otras wrote: post #5

One thing I’d add is that live coding exercises can vary widely in quality. > If you solve the problem, you’re scored highly. If you don’t, you’re scored poorly. In my own opinion, this is a terrible way to look at these problems, though many people do use this metric. This is further emphasized by HackerRank-style exercises where you have to pass all test cases. This is robotic and not empathic at all. A more fluid…

+1. The variation between companies is part of the problem, IMO. When a company gives me a coding test, I don't know what will happen next. I don't know if I devote my time to a coding test if it will result in either a pass/fail examination (meaning instant rejection, no follow up) or a live post-discussion to talk about my mistakes or methods.

I'm currently interviewing, and I have to say I've taken enough pass/fail coding tests to start to shy away from coding tests, especially if they don't tell me what to expect.

Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#109

Post by username90 »

dahart wrote: post #105
username90 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they could just lie and tell you from the perspective of another dev on their team, or even combining the achievements from several of them at once. Of course most people wont lie a lot but this style heavily favors those who do so you will get a disproportionate amount of liars on your team.

I think your assumption is incorrect, based on my own experience. I’ve never hired a liar, and I’ve hired a lot of people. I have, however, declined to hire people who failed to answer follow up questions honestly or appeared to not be able to explain their success. Anyone who wants a job knows it’s a bad idea to lie because you find out immediately once you hire someone whether they are lying, and it would be ground…

> you find out immediately once you hire someone whether they are lying

Do you really believe this? Lets say we have a mediocre person on a team who tells the story of him being a star performer. How would you catch that? He went on the design meetings, he know why every decision was made, he has worked on the project for years. There is no way you would catch it, and the halo effect would likely mean that you still think he is doing decent work but that the environment might have made him a bit worse but you wouldn't believe that he lied.

Re: Hiring Is Broken?

#110

Post by coding123 »

At one (large) company I worked at we hired the guy that basically invented one of the technologies at Sun behind one of the larger JSRs - like an entire standard API for one of the Java EE products (not going to say which) for an architect role. I have no idea why we hired him. He basically sat idle all the time asking what he was supposed to do. He randomly would make charts and show people. He was older, out of touch with most of the team, and just kinda present at every meeting with no specific task or role. He had advice here and there that most of the people at the table were already thinking through. I left before I found out what happened to him. Nice guy though.

Hiring might be broken for keeping out the best of the best, but as long as you work at a company that isn't afraid of firing/laying off, hiring isn't fully broken.

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