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Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

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Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#51

Post by louisch »

acomjean wrote: post #44

I think its going to cause problems for developers if they completely remove them. As people won't be able to run the script to install the things that give them up to date scripts. Its like using the default web browser to download the "browser of your choice". There is the issue that apple usually "quarantines" executable downloads ("You downloaded this from X, do you really want to run) and these scripts do an end…

Apparently homebrew currently pulls a temporary ruby to run its installation on linux where it can't expect there to be a systen ruby installed. Something like that would have to be done.

Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#52

Post by jsjohnst »

jmull wrote: post #45
fortran77 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple still advertises their operating systems as "Secure By Design". With the latest news about iOS zerodays in the wild for years, we know this isn't true. Do a google search for "Secure By Design" site:apple.com to see where they use this term for both iOS and OSX. Someday, someone will win in court over this.

Designing for security doesn’t guarantee no security issues. Done well it should substantially reduce the number and severity of security issues. To back up your claim from a numbers standpoint you’d have to quantify the number and severity of security issues in Apple OSs vs comparable OSs that aren’t “Secure by Design”. That’s obviously problematic in a few ways. You could also analyze the design of the OS for secur…

> You’d need to show how the design disregards security.

I mostly agree with you, but don’t forget the ‘root login with empty password’ or ‘the password hint showing the password on encrypted disk unlock’ issues. I don’t see how anyone can claim that was secure by design. Sure, it was a bug, but a secure design would not have permitted that issue.

Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#53

Post by hk__2 »

jakobegger wrote: post #23
polpo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a big deal for Homebrew, which is written in Ruby and uses the version shipped with macOS to install itself.

I think that telling users to execute a shell command to install software is not the smartest idea in any case (eg. no way to verify signatures of installed software) A standard installer package would be much better.

> I think that telling users to execute a shell command to install software is not the smartest idea in any case (eg. no way to verify signatures of installed software)

Installing via a shell command has nothing to do with the (in)ability to verify signatures. You aren’t more protected running a random installer package than an auditable shell script from the official Homebrew repo. Also, Homebrew supports more installation methods including cloning the git repo by yourself or un-taring an archive.

Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#54

Post by ralmeida »

fortran77 wrote: post #33
xiaq wrote: post #30

Title is misleading and makes it sound like Apple is removing support for scripting features that are integrated with macOS - AppleScript for instance. More like "Apple to stop shipping scripting language interpreters in macOS".

If they ship with the OS, they're "integrated" with the OS.

Strictly speaking, yes, but the level of integration is very different. I can get the version of Python which would come bundled elsewhere, but if they remove Automator, there's nothing I can do.

Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#55

Post by jboles »

fortran77 wrote: post #33
xiaq wrote: post #30

Title is misleading and makes it sound like Apple is removing support for scripting features that are integrated with macOS - AppleScript for instance. More like "Apple to stop shipping scripting language interpreters in macOS".

If they ship with the OS, they're "integrated" with the OS.

Not really, no. Python/Ruby/Perl interpreters are not “integrated” into the OS like AppleScript and Automator are. They’re just some binaries sitting in /usr/local/bin.

Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#56

Post by hanniabu »

tazard wrote: post #29
crocbuzz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Mojave comes pre-installed with the latest release of Python and PHP.

Mine came with python 2.7 and php 7.1 not exactly the latest releases.

Python 2 is the real python /s

Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#57

Post by ken »

acomjean wrote: post #44

I think its going to cause problems for developers if they completely remove them. As people won't be able to run the script to install the things that give them up to date scripts. Its like using the default web browser to download the "browser of your choice". There is the issue that apple usually "quarantines" executable downloads ("You downloaded this from X, do you really want to run) and these scripts do an end…

It's a pain to switch languages, but it looks like there will still be at least 4 scripting languages available: Z shell, Applescript, Javascript, and Swift.

Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#58

Post by [deleted] »

rasengan wrote: post #31
frou_dh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

POSIX defines what Unix is, and there's no Python/Ruby/Perl here: https://shellhaters.org https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/

Agreed as it relates to UNIX(R). But, I think we have all come to expect BASH and other scripting to be available on our systems.

[deleted]

Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#59

Post by pdpi »

fortran77 wrote: post #33
xiaq wrote: post #30

Title is misleading and makes it sound like Apple is removing support for scripting features that are integrated with macOS - AppleScript for instance. More like "Apple to stop shipping scripting language interpreters in macOS".

If they ship with the OS, they're "integrated" with the OS.

Internet Explorer was integrated into Windows in ways that Calculator or Mine Sweeper weren't — those were merely bundled with the OS.

Python, Perl are the calc.exe of this story — not integrated into the OS, just bundled with it. There's a long history between OSX and Ruby, with MacRuby and RubyCocoa being some efforts to actually integrate Ruby more tightly into the ecosystem, but those efforts have long been abandoned.

Re: Apple to Deprecate Scripting Languages in Future Versions of macOS

#60

Post by RichardCA »

msla wrote: post #42
frou_dh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

POSIX defines what Unix is, and there's no Python/Ruby/Perl here: https://shellhaters.org https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/

No, the The Open Group, which owns the trademark on the name "Unix", defines what Unix is, and that group defines macOS as Unix. It also defines z/OS as Unix and does not define any of the Open Source BSDs as Unix, which means FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD are not Unix and are, at most, Unix-like. OTOH, the Inspur K-UX Linux distribution is Unix. And The Open Group doesn't use POSIX, it uses the Single Unix Specificat…

Yeah I remember the 90's. Every time I used a system that met the standard Unix definition it felt so vanilla I wanted to dribble chocolate sauce on it.

That was a metaphor. The reality is I'd get in trouble for spending modem time using UUCP to get a decent, usable tool chain in place before I could do anything productive.

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