Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine • Hacker News Board

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#101

Post by henrikschroder » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 9:51 AM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #96

maldeh wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully understand your point that GDPR hasn't been good for investment or startups, and that that the likelihood of a startup succeeding to reach sustainability in the european field has significantly diminished. What I'm rejecting is that that's necessarily an undesirable state of affairs. Does the world really need the likes of Blur or DiscountMugs to succeed, when they have proven woefully incapable of protecting…

> What I'm rejecting is that that's necessarily an undesirable state of affairs. Does the world really need the likes of Blur or DiscountMugs to succeed, when they have proven woefully incapable of protecting the most basic forms of user data? Again, I'm saying that the cost is borne by all startups, not just the ones you don't like. For startups, the main cost of GDPR isn't fines, it's less investment money and more…

[flagged]

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#102

Post by mytailorisrich » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 9:52 AM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #85

pkz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, they did the following: - Data and analysis was done at a server in the class room (locked in a cabinet) - All parents signed a consent form before the trial started. - All data was erased after the trial ended. The Swedish DPA decided that: 1. Consent is not valid of there is a power difference between the subject and the requester. 2. They should have documented a PIA (Privacy impact assessment). 3. The…

Hmm, when can parents consent on behalf of children? Can children retract the consent given for them by their parents?

This is a big issue these days.

Parents should be able to consent on behalf of their children and retraction should come from parents as well.

This used to be considered common sense but not anymore.

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#103

Post by tastroder » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 9:58 AM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #87

tastroder wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that paper: "Of course, there are caveats to these findings. First of all, GDPR has only been in effect in the EU for a short time, and the effects we’ve observed may be temporary, with investors potentially taking a wait-and-see approach." Given the year-over-year trends shown in [0] I feel like one should not overemphasize the timeframe that article looked at. The decline seems to be relatively contained at be…

It's not due to larger industry trends. The paper shows that startups in the US got more funding in the same time period, including early stage startups. I remember warning about this when GDPR was being considered. People said it wasn't a concern. Later in 2018 I linked to a draft whitepaper that showed a decline in funding for EU startups. People replied that it was a statistical fluke and that we needed more time…

Okay, let's say there is enough data and you are absolutely correct. How does that invalidate the "Even if it did, the trade-offs are worth it." response?

The US-EU funding disparity was always there, in my book this leads to less people copying ethically dubious startup patterns from their US counterparts. If GDPR is the sole reason for the decline... doesn't the benefit of the population, of quite a few countries, outweigh the impact on a few startup folks and their investors?

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#104

Post by henrikschroder » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 10:02 AM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #44

maldeh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That presumes all early stage startups (as made in the US) are created equal, and any regression in their success rates is bad. Given that 9/10 startups fail even without GDPR, it's not surprising that early stage cos form the Lion's share of failures, and it surely can't be good for any data that was slurped up during whatever these experiments at market fit were doing. And given that the ultimate goal of GDPR is to…

You misunderstand the point I'm making. After GDPR, investments in early stage startups dropped by almost 50% in the EU. If you cut investment in half, you're going to cause some startups to fail that otherwise would have succeeded. Startups are a "hits" enterprise. Most fail. Some are mildly successful. A few are responsible for almost all of the upside. Cutting investment by 50% means that instead of getting a Drop…

> Cutting investment by 50% means that instead of getting a Dropbox and a Spotify, you'll only get a Dropbox. That missing upside is bad for the economy.

No no, if investment money disappears from tech, that means you get Dropbox and something else that isn't a tech company. The investment money doesn't just disappear into thin air, it gets invested into something else, a different kind of company, a different sector, some place that isn't dependent on privacy-violating ad-tech bullshit and selling user behaviours to make money.

And as a result, society is better off.

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#105

Post by input_sh » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 10:02 AM UTC

msla wrote: post #71

vangelis wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, I didn't know people's memories could be archived and replayed.

The court system depends upon it, in the form of eyewitness testimony.

...if there's a reasonable suspicion. Not all the time for all the people walking past a certain location.

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#106

Post by noir_lord » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 10:04 AM UTC

lwkl wrote: post #77

Iv wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School is the most authoritarian experience one typically experiences in a democracy. Here is a place where a strict hierarchy is enforced, through means of parental and peer pressure, anxiety over your future. Your schedule is planned by the minute, even peeing requires an authorization. Chatting is banned except on very limited time spans. The fact that we have kept a part of middle-age inside our modern societies…

Since I was a teenager I never asked to pee or drink in school. I just got up and told them: „I’m going to pee now.“ I see these things as my basic human rights. And nobody should accept having them restricted. In the country where I live the school has the authority by law to be more restrictive and enforce their own rules. Which I see as necessary to some point. But I think we should teach kids and teenagers to mak…

When I was 9 I had an absolutely awful teacher (to the extent she'd refuse kids using the bathroom to the point where they'd pee themselves (it was the 80's)), I told my mum about it and her response was "If you need to go ask, if she says no, go anyway and I'll deal with the fallout".

It was my first lesson in dealing with unjust authority and that most authority relies on the principle that most people under it will do as they say most of the time.

A useful lesson and after that I saw asking to use the bathroom as a courtesy because I was going either way.

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#107

Post by ggreer » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 10:04 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #104

ggreer wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand the point I'm making. After GDPR, investments in early stage startups dropped by almost 50% in the EU. If you cut investment in half, you're going to cause some startups to fail that otherwise would have succeeded. Startups are a "hits" enterprise. Most fail. Some are mildly successful. A few are responsible for almost all of the upside. Cutting investment by 50% means that instead of getting a Drop…

> Cutting investment by 50% means that instead of getting a Dropbox and a Spotify, you'll only get a Dropbox. That missing upside is bad for the economy. No no, if investment money disappears from tech, that means you get Dropbox and something else that isn't a tech company . The investment money doesn't just disappear into thin air, it gets invested into something else, a different kind of company, a different secto…

If you read the paper I linked to, it says that the money is likely going to the US and other places outside of the EU. Capital can cross borders effortlessly.

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#108

Post by Avamander » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 10:04 AM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #90

ganzuul wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying laws against human trafficking are bad because it hurts business.

You are comparing server logs containing your IP address to human trafficking. That's a fun bit of rhetoric, but it doesn't help anyone in this conversation discover what's true.

You are turning his argument about things being forbidden by the GDPR being in majority eroding to privacy into something about IP addresses, it's not a fair simplification. That actually doesn't help anyone in this conversation to decide if the privacy gains provided by GDPR are worth it or not.

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#109

Post by henrikschroder » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 10:05 AM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #87

tastroder wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that paper: "Of course, there are caveats to these findings. First of all, GDPR has only been in effect in the EU for a short time, and the effects we’ve observed may be temporary, with investors potentially taking a wait-and-see approach." Given the year-over-year trends shown in [0] I feel like one should not overemphasize the timeframe that article looked at. The decline seems to be relatively contained at be…

It's not due to larger industry trends. The paper shows that startups in the US got more funding in the same time period, including early stage startups. I remember warning about this when GDPR was being considered. People said it wasn't a concern. Later in 2018 I linked to a draft whitepaper that showed a decline in funding for EU startups. People replied that it was a statistical fluke and that we needed more time…

> Later in 2018 I linked to a draft whitepaper that showed a decline in funding for EU startups.

Correlation is not causation. That the GDPR caused this decline is a pretty hefty claim for which you have offered zero evidence.

Re: Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine

#110

Post by m0xte » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 10:20 AM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #106

lwkl wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I was a teenager I never asked to pee or drink in school. I just got up and told them: „I’m going to pee now.“ I see these things as my basic human rights. And nobody should accept having them restricted. In the country where I live the school has the authority by law to be more restrictive and enforce their own rules. Which I see as necessary to some point. But I think we should teach kids and teenagers to mak…

When I was 9 I had an absolutely awful teacher (to the extent she'd refuse kids using the bathroom to the point where they'd pee themselves (it was the 80's)), I told my mum about it and her response was "If you need to go ask, if she says no, go anyway and I'll deal with the fallout". It was my first lesson in dealing with unjust authority and that most authority relies on the principle that most people under it wil…

I was one of the kids who peed himself in class due to one of those teachers. I had asked three times to go. Ripe age of of 12 no less.

It destroyed my fear of and respect for arbitrary authority instantly so I look back on it as a good thing today. I realised that rather than my peers turning on me on a shame basis they turned on the teacher because it was going to be them next.

It also positioned me well for dealing with the somewhat backwards ideals in my own childrens’ school.