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Altruism Isn’t Always Attractive

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Re: Altruism Isn’t Always Attractive

#41
post #8

People look for mates who will care for them. If you value the group over the individual then that's less likely. The ideal, surely, is someone who looks after themselves, their partner and their friends foremost and the group after that. When those two things come into conflict, however...

Exactly. I know altruists who don't take care of themselves but instead need help from others. They are sort of generous but I always wonder if they are really generous if in turn their lifestyle is not self sufficient. For example if somebody helped somebody else with a big vet bill but now I am being asked to buy a car for that person I feel that actually I am the real giver and the person that thinks she is genero…

I've been taking money from government, family, or wealthy friends most of my life. Yet I've also given more than I've received to most of the friends I've known. I've thought much about how selfish or generous I was. You can get really cynical and say that altruism doesn't exist at all if you really get cynical and that people are just trying to fire off pleasure receptors in their brains.

Ultimately though yes people who give to others are altruistic. Some people you will give money to will keep every penny, some will give away every cent they can. The former are selfish the latter altruistic and there is no need to overcomplicate things.

I've only become more self-sufficient over time and today am a net "giver". Did I just become less selfish over time? No I've actually started valuing selfishness MORE over time because it became more appealing as I became stronger. Focusing on results confuses things because people in bad situations CAN'T be as giving as somebody in a good one. Somebody in a good situation can be generous enough to change people's lives without any meaningful personal sacrifice.

A person who is a taker and has no desire to stop being one is not truly altruistic though. Selfishly taking from others and being performatively charitable is selfishness in the veil of altruism. The desire to be seen as the "real giver" is also selfish.

Re: Altruism Isn’t Always Attractive

#42
post #7
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who have studied Philosophical Ethics in High School or Undergrad, you'll probably be familiar with the term "deontological" (lit. 'derived from god') but are perhaps not used to the term "consequentialist" or "consequentialism". Per the study, "consequentialism" is Utilitarianism, which may be more familiar to you. > "...said to be making a “consequentialist” (or “utilitarian”) judgment in line with conseq…

Strictly, there are other forms of consequentialism besides utilitarianism, though utilitarianism is perhaps the most familiar. Consequentialism means (duh) judging your morality based on the consequences of your actions. Utilitarianism means making that judgment in terms of some quantifiable "utility" or "value". But there are other ways to make that judgment, including applying intuition or even applying some kind…

For example, a deontological ethic might say "you must not drive drunk" under a theory of negligence, and "you must not negotiate with terrorists", but a consequentialist ethic might say "you may drive drunk but not kill someone while driving" and "you should acquiesce to terroristic threats to prevent a murder". And a utilitarian ethic would measure how many lives would be lost under each choice, and perhaps assign variable value to those lives (by age or health or potential future productive output)

Re: Altruism Isn’t Always Attractive

#43
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who have studied Philosophical Ethics in High School or Undergrad, you'll probably be familiar with the term "deontological" (lit. 'derived from god') but are perhaps not used to the term "consequentialist" or "consequentialism". Per the study, "consequentialism" is Utilitarianism, which may be more familiar to you. > "...said to be making a “consequentialist” (or “utilitarian”) judgment in line with conseq…

Good thing that Deontology is nothing but Utilitarianism with a different name. We can think Schopenhauer for pointing out Kant's errors on this one.

Huh, what?

Re: Altruism Isn’t Always Attractive

#44
post #6

A related piece from Jeremy Waldron on the topic of "moral distance": "The parable of the Good Samaritan, as it has become known, is cited most often by moral philosophers to open a debate about the duty to rescue [...] We all agree that it was wrong for the thieves to attack the man, and that it would be equally wrong for the Samaritan, the priest, or the Levite to join in such an attack. The hard question is: do th…

How is that Waldron's commentary and not the original parable?

Re: Altruism Isn’t Always Attractive

#45
post #8

People look for mates who will care for them. If you value the group over the individual then that's less likely. The ideal, surely, is someone who looks after themselves, their partner and their friends foremost and the group after that. When those two things come into conflict, however...

Exactly. I know altruists who don't take care of themselves but instead need help from others. They are sort of generous but I always wonder if they are really generous if in turn their lifestyle is not self sufficient. For example if somebody helped somebody else with a big vet bill but now I am being asked to buy a car for that person I feel that actually I am the real giver and the person that thinks she is genero…

"Self sufficient" is an extremely individualistic term that doesn't apply in a society. "Pulling your weight" is more balanced.

Re: Altruism Isn’t Always Attractive

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing that Deontology is nothing but Utilitarianism with a different name. We can think Schopenhauer for pointing out Kant's errors on this one.

Huh, what?

What?

"His merit in this respect, therefore, is very great; yet justice requires that we also remember here, firstly that his exposition and argument are often not in keeping with the tendency and spirit ofhis ethics, as we shall see in a moment, and secondly that, even so,he is not the first to have purged virtue of all principles of happiness.For Plato, especially in the Republic, of which the main tendencyis precisely this, expressly teaches that virtue is to be chosen for itsown sake alone, even if unhappiness and ignominy should be in-evitably associated with it. But still more does Christianity preach awholly unselfish virtue, that is also practised not for the sake of thereward in a life after death, but quite gratuitously out of love forGod, inasmuch as works do not justify, but only faith which virtueaccompanies, as its mere symptom so to speak, and which thereforeappears quite gratuitously and of its own accord. See Luther's DeLibertate Christiana. I will not take at all into account the Indians,in whose sacred books the hope of a reward for our works iseverywhere described as the path of darkness which can never leadto the blissful state. However, we do not find Kant's doctrine ofvirtue so pure; or rather the presentation falls far short of the spirit,and has in fact lapsed into inconsistency. In his highest good, whichhe subsequently discussed, we find virtue wedded to happiness. Yetthe ought, originally so unconditioned, does postulate afterwards acondition for itself, really in order to be rid of the inner contradic-tion, burdened with which it cannot live. Now supreme happinessin the highest good should not really be the motive for virtue; yetit is there like a secret article, the presence of which makes all therest a mere sham contract. It is not really the reward of virtue,but yet is a voluntary gift for which virtue, after work has beendone, stealthily holds its hand open. We can convince ourselves ofthis from the Critique of Practical Reason (pp. 223-266 of thefourth, or pp. 264-295 of the Rosenkranz edition). The whole ofKant's moral theology also has the same tendency, and on this veryaccount morality really destroys itself through moral theology. ForI repeat that all virtue in any way practised for the sake of a re-ward is based on a prudent, methodical, far-seeing egoism.Now the purport of the absolute ought, the fundamental law of practical reason, is the famous: "So act that the maxim of your willmight always be valid at the same time as the principle of a uni-versal legislation." This principle gives to the person who demandsa regulation for his own will, the task of seeking a regulation forthe will of all. The question then arises how such a regulation is tobe found. Obviously, to discover the rule of my conduct, I oughtnot to have regard to myself alone, but to the sum-total of all indi-viduals. Then instead of my own well-being, the well-being of allwithout distinction becomes my object and aim. This aim, however,still always remains well-being. I then find that all can be equallywell off only if each makes the egoism of others the limit of his own.It naturally follows from this that I ought not to injure anyone, sothat, since this principle is assumed to be universal, / also may notbe injured. This, however, is the only ground on account of whichI, not yet possessing a moral principle but only looking for one,can desire this to be a universal law. But obviously in this way thedesire for well-being, in other words egoism, remains the source ofthis ethical principle. As the basis of political science it would beexcellent; as the basis of ethics it is worthless. For the man who at-tempts to establish a regulation for the will of all, which is proposedin that moral principle, is himself in turn necessarily in need of aregulation, otherwise everything would be a matter of indifferenceto him. This regulation, however, can only be his own egoism, asthe conduct of others influences this alone. Therefore only by meansof this, and with respect to it, can that man have a will concerningthe conduct of others, and is such conduct not a matter of indiffer-ence to him. Kant himself very naïvely intimates this"

Pg 524-525, The World as Will and Representation, http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38427/38427-pdf.pdf

Kant was eternally destroyed by Schopenhauer and Philip Mainlander.

Re: Altruism Isn’t Always Attractive

#47
post #12
post #2

The main study which prompted this article is available here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002210311... Abstract: > Previous work has demonstrated that people are more likely to trust “deontological” agents who reject harming one person to save many others than “consequentialist” agents who endorse such instrumental harms, which could explain the higher prevalence of non-consequentialist moral i…

TL;DR People like you if you wouldn't sacrifice them for the benefit of the group.

I see a lot more subtlety here than that. This is already a pop summary of work published in the "Journal of Experimental Social Psychology". Do we need to reduce every piece of information to a 10-word summary?

Re: Altruism Isn’t Always Attractive

#48
post #47
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR People like you if you wouldn't sacrifice them for the benefit of the group.

I see a lot more subtlety here than that. This is already a pop summary of work published in the "Journal of Experimental Social Psychology". Do we need to reduce every piece of information to a 10-word summary?

It is.

They also say you like people more who spend their time and money on you and not on some strangers who need those resources more than you.

Anyway, I just wrote this "summary" because I had the impression the diction was a bit heavy for mere mortals :)

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