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Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

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Re: Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

#71

Post by mullen »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #46
kthejoker2 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote you, but I see no data, only anecdotes, poor forms of argumentation ("most of us ..."), and outright mistruths (your health care is in no way, shape, or form "free") ... and HN tends to downvote this sort of content.

> your health care is in no way, shape, or form "free" Are you nitpicking over the definition of the word "free" because it's taxpayer-funded? You should know that "free healthcare" is shorthand for "you are unlikely to be bankrupted by, or forced to do without, necessary treatment because your insurance is not up to snuff."

No one is nitpicking, you are just seriously incorrect. Free means to not pay for something. Saying that Health Care is free is to say that the user of Health Care does not have to pay for its cost. Health Care is never free, no matter the system in which it is provided.

Re: Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

#72

Post by neplus »

I was born and raised in Canada. I, like many of my peers at the "top" Canadian universities, focused solely on recruiting to the "top" American companies that came to campus to recruit[1].

I would describe Canada as generally being tightly range bound. One of the most striking things about coming to the U.S. is the large class of what I would consider to be the working poor. People who are truly just doing enough to get by and are one mishap away from financial ruin. Of course, having lived in SF and NYC this is constantly juxtaposed with extreme, incomprehensible wealth that is equally striking.

In Canada, in my experience, the vast majority are still in the middle with few outliers in either direction. Earning potentials are significantly capped - even in areas like banking and tech - and social programs make it quite difficult for there to be the kind of working poor I observe daily here.

I've often thought to myself that I couldn't imagine what it would be like to make $50k in the United States (even living in a low CoL area). From health insurance, to private school costs (given the quality of many public schools), to college costs. It would seem an intense burden. Certainly if I had offers that paid between $50-100k in both the U.S. and Canada I would move back to Canada. I would feel I have no other choice.

With all that said, I make many multiples - especially after tax - of what I could ever have hoped to make in Canada. I have been inside institutions with the kind of institutional framework with no comparable in Canada (from a human capital and technological perspective). Opportunities have been afforded to me here that either do not exist or are analogous, but significantly inferior in Canada. The United States has given me a wonderful life and I'll always be grateful for the opportunity to be here.

I make no claim as to which economic system is better. I would just observe that Canada is a much easier place to live, but in my experience lacking in the kind of dynamism you see in the United States (that translates into personal opportunities, income, and fulfilment).

[1] Top is obviously somewhat subjective. McGill, U of T, UBC, and U of Waterloo would be the "top" schools. The "top" jobs are FANG or FANG-adjacent, investment banks or hedge funds (GS, JPM, Citadel, etc.), and consulting firms (McKinsey, BCG, Bain).

Re: Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

#73

Post by sjg007 »

refurb wrote: post #24
hackbinary wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well spotted. And that is mostly due to Harper and the Conservatives giving huge tax breaks to the very wealthy, and the super ridiculously wealthy.

What do tax breaks have to do with private debt, namely mortgage and HELOC debt?

Mortgage interest is deductible. It lets you take on more house or refinance high interest debt.

Re: Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

#75

Post by bcoates »

grecy wrote: post #18
product50 wrote: post #3

And then you realize that the population of Canada is 10% of US. Canada should be compared to the Nordic countries vs. US in terms of quality of life etc.

I have never understood why people assume that just because the US is bigger than other OECD countries that it can't have the same levels of happiness, or the same quality/cost of healthcare and education etc. Why do you think the US should aim lower simply because it has more people? Why don't you think per-capita comparisons are valid? If anything, the US should be better than smaller OECD countries because it gets…

It's not a policy issue, just a statistical artifact.

From variance alone you'd expect the US to be middle of the pack, and smaller countries to make up the extremes on any metric you can make up. Particularly if, as in the case of the OECD, you're essentially cherry-picking high performing, smaller countries.

You can't usefully compare ratios where the denominators differ that wildly.

If you want to measure the difference between Canada, nordic countries, the US, etc., you need to cluster them into reasonably-chosen and mostly uniformly-sized chunks, collect your metric on each chunk, and compare the distribution of chunks across systems of government/countries/etc. This would actually result in a statistically valid comparison.

That's a lot more work and as far as I know nobody ever does it.

Re: Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

#76

Post by sysbin »

lostgame wrote: post #65
sysbin wrote: post #45

Canada is tremendously better than the USA if you're young (18 to 30 years old). I had the shittiest life in the USA, was born in Canada but parents moved to USA and when I was seven years old; parents were lower-middle class for context. I've only managed to move back to Canada a few years ago and I wish I never would go to the USA ever again if I could live life over. Canada has free healthcare and I'm a transgende…

I...I can't believe people are downvoting stuff like this. We're virtually in the same position - I am also transgender, and would have to pay hundreds of dollars for HRT if I was down there, alone. There are unfortunately a lot more biased, seemingly pious individuals here, who are just downvoting these kinds of comments without even providing proper criticism. That's what 'patriotism' gives you. Amurrrica! I've eve…

I'm doubtful any of the downvotes are coming from people that have experienced what's offered for being in situations of misfortune in life. I sometimes think I have ptsd from the way everyone in the USA is quick to assume the person suffering is responsible for their own suffering; accusing when they've never experienced anything of the sort by how their life happened to play out. Makes seeking help harder than when I first attempted in the USA. I sometimes wonder if the USA adopted the blame victim psych by assuming that would be a solution of saving human & social resources.

Re: Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

#77

Post by rayiner »

neplus wrote: post #72

I was born and raised in Canada. I, like many of my peers at the "top" Canadian universities, focused solely on recruiting to the "top" American companies that came to campus to recruit[1]. I would describe Canada as generally being tightly range bound. One of the most striking things about coming to the U.S. is the large class of what I would consider to be the working poor. People who are truly just doing enough to…

> I've often thought to myself that I couldn't imagine what it would be like to make $50k in the United States (even living in a low CoL area). From health insurance, to private school costs (given the quality of many public schools), to college costs. It would seem an intense burden. Certainly if I had offers that paid between $50-100k in both the U.S. and Canada I would move back to Canada. I would feel I have no other choice.

I wonder how much of this perception comes from the fact that people who have lived in both Canada and the U.S. probably lived in places like SF and NYC, and those American cities are particularly dysfunctional. And that dysfunctionality is particularly visible because of differences in housing patterns. (Toronto versus Chicago is a good example. The two cities are the same size, but Toronto's metro area has 6.5 million people, while Chicago's has almost 10 million. If housing patterns were similar, Chicago would have another 1.5-2 million middle class people living in the city, lessening the impression of gaping wealth inequality between the city's various neighborhoods.)

The fact is that Canada spends almost exactly the same percentage of GDP on social welfare as the U.S., and slightly less per student on K-12 education. It's hard to imagine that Canada really manages to get a dramatically different safety net for the same money. More likely to me is that U.S. urbanites have little experience with American families in suburban Georgia or Kansas--places where making $50,000 and getting employer-paid health insurance (like most middle class families get), and sending your kids to the perfectly good neighborhood school makes for a quite comfortable life.

Re: Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

#78

Post by jamie_ca »

sjg007 wrote: post #73
refurb wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do tax breaks have to do with private debt, namely mortgage and HELOC debt?

Mortgage interest is deductible. It lets you take on more house or refinance high interest debt.

Mortgage interest is not tax-deductible in Canada.

Re: Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

#79

Post by moate »

refurb wrote: post #69
zht wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4 university degrees is probably cheaper than 1 private school degree from the US

Why would you compare a public Canadian university to a private US college? Why not compare public to public?

Statement still stands, public to public in many areas the US is going to cost much more (up to 3X). It just gets REALLY gross when you bring in the private schools.

https://www.insider.com/college-canada-us-differences-2018-1...

Re: Most Canadians Are Now Better Off Than Most Americans

#80

Post by guyzero »

luckylion wrote: post #50
krn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada and Australia are the only two countries with the population of over 20 million that are ranked higher than the USA in the OECD Better Life Index[1]. Therefore, it's safe to assume that the size of the country makes a huge difference in such rankings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD_Better_Life_Index

And location. Canada has no border with the developing world, and neither does Australia. If Canada was located next to Panama, things would probably look different.

Canada has an immense unguarded border with a country that has several million uneducated people living in extreme poverty.
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