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Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

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Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#31

Post by tempguy9999 »

privateSFacct wrote: post #26
linuxftw wrote: post #7

It's obvious to me neither the FAA nor Boeing attempted to accurately replicate the first crash scenario, because this could have wholly averted the second crash. As soon as the planes were grounded, we were getting all sorts of reports about the stablizer being too hard to move and basically an unrecover situation. Jail time is the only outcome I will accept.

Wow. We have an drug problem that kills 40,000+/year from overdoses. Over a million people die driving in the world PER YEAR. A small bit of perspective. Plane flying used to be much MORE dangerous before the "corrupt" FAA got involved with the airplane companies to regulate things more closely. The 737 MAX has had no US passenger fatalities flying with US licensed pilots. The record of safety in aviation in the last…

> The 737 MAX has had no US passenger fatalities flying with US licensed pilots

As a non-US citizen, I find that comment really disturbing.

> Just interesting that big pharma walks free

"Drugmaker Johnson & Johnson must pay $572m (£468m) for its part in fuelling Oklahoma's opioid addiction crisis, a judge in the US state has ruled."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49452373

I understand other states are lining up too.

Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#32

Post by jellicle »

FabHK wrote: post #13
linuxftw wrote: post #7

It's obvious to me neither the FAA nor Boeing attempted to accurately replicate the first crash scenario, because this could have wholly averted the second crash. As soon as the planes were grounded, we were getting all sorts of reports about the stablizer being too hard to move and basically an unrecover situation. Jail time is the only outcome I will accept.

How is it obvious to you that they didn't investigate the first crash sufficiently? I'd say some time after the first accident it was reasonably well understood what had happened, and the FAA (and many others!) concluded that it was still safe to fly the plane, as the pilots could easily interrupt the accident chain by doing the right thing quick (as the pilots on the Lion Air flight preceding the accident flight had…

I've never quite understood that argument that only little people benefit from jail time and important people do not. Surely if we can put someone in jail for a year for having a forbidden plant in their pocket then we could put someone in jail for - how about a week? Three days? An hour? - for choosing to cut corners on safety and smashing two planes full of people into jelly?

The root cause here is "Boeing management wanted to get a plane out quick so they didn't lose market share". The way to examine the system and make sure this doesn't repeat (for now...) is to put someone in jail for it. Then the next time that some plane company wants to cut corners and get an unsafe plane out quick, some manager who doesn't want to go to jail will put a stop to it.

Show me the flaw in my logic.

Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#33

Post by uniformlyrandom »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #31
privateSFacct wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. We have an drug problem that kills 40,000+/year from overdoses. Over a million people die driving in the world PER YEAR. A small bit of perspective. Plane flying used to be much MORE dangerous before the "corrupt" FAA got involved with the airplane companies to regulate things more closely. The 737 MAX has had no US passenger fatalities flying with US licensed pilots. The record of safety in aviation in the last…

> The 737 MAX has had no US passenger fatalities flying with US licensed pilots As a non-US citizen, I find that comment really disturbing. > Just interesting that big pharma walks free "Drugmaker Johnson & Johnson must pay $572m (£468m) for its part in fuelling Oklahoma's opioid addiction crisis, a judge in the US state has ruled." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49452373 I understand other states are lining up…

As a human being (that happens to be a US citizen), I find OP's comment really disturbing.

The whole comment is whataboutism, so maybe this was just an intentional red herring.

Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#34

Post by CivBase »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #16
nness wrote: post #6

> Bickeböller's complaint endangered the planned inauguration of the 787, which had already been delayed due to technical difficulties. The problems identified by the engineer, however, weren't addressed by Boeing, which is why he turned to EASA in June. [...] In those papers, it states that management and top executives at Boeing had ordered that the coordination problems with the company's suppliers be "closed." Th…

We're talking about the 787 here, not the 737 variant that's falling out of the sky. Despite initial teething issues (something all big systems like this have to some extent) the 787 has gone on to be a successful design. To say "I, for one, hope this plane never flies again" is an overreaction, especially since said problems have been fixed and the plane is in service without the issue popping up.

If those are teething issues, I'm scared to find out what you'd consider to be a serious problem.

Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#35

Post by simion314 »

privateSFacct wrote: post #26
linuxftw wrote: post #7

It's obvious to me neither the FAA nor Boeing attempted to accurately replicate the first crash scenario, because this could have wholly averted the second crash. As soon as the planes were grounded, we were getting all sorts of reports about the stablizer being too hard to move and basically an unrecover situation. Jail time is the only outcome I will accept.

Wow. We have an drug problem that kills 40,000+/year from overdoses. Over a million people die driving in the world PER YEAR. A small bit of perspective. Plane flying used to be much MORE dangerous before the "corrupt" FAA got involved with the airplane companies to regulate things more closely. The 737 MAX has had no US passenger fatalities flying with US licensed pilots. The record of safety in aviation in the last…

Any reason you think that this crashes would not have ever happened in US? Before the first crash the pilots did not even known abut MCAS existence so I am not sure why you think that US pilots are extraordinary, I assume that not all MAX pilots are ex fighter pilots with super skills and whatever you imagine that makes ALL US pilots superior to the rest of the world.

Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#36

Post by CydeWeys »

CivBase wrote: post #34
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about the 787 here, not the 737 variant that's falling out of the sky. Despite initial teething issues (something all big systems like this have to some extent) the 787 has gone on to be a successful design. To say "I, for one, hope this plane never flies again" is an overreaction, especially since said problems have been fixed and the plane is in service without the issue popping up.

If those are teething issues, I'm scared to find out what you'd consider to be a serious problem.

They're fixed now, is the point. It wouldn't make sense to pull 787s now because the problems are fixed and it would throw global air travel into chaos and disarray (since this plane is now so widely used).

Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#37

Post by AnimalMuppet »

FabHK wrote: post #9

> What's more, over the course of his 55 years in the profession, he [lawyer Marc Moller] [has] learned that every plane crash can be traced back to a single, simple cause. I don't know, that strikes me as nonsense. It's precisely the interplay of many factors that lead to an accident - and if any one of them had been different, the outcome might have been different. See Reason's "swiss cheese" model of accidents - a…

Forgive me a great deal of cynicism here. I suspect that a more accurate statement is "he learned that it works well for him to argue that every plane crash can be traced back to a single, simple cause."

We don't ask lawyers to do surgery. We don't ask them to design bridges. And we don't ask them to do root cause analysis. We leave all of those things to those who actually know what they're doing in those areas.

Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#38

Post by dsfyu404ed »

CivBase wrote: post #34
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about the 787 here, not the 737 variant that's falling out of the sky. Despite initial teething issues (something all big systems like this have to some extent) the 787 has gone on to be a successful design. To say "I, for one, hope this plane never flies again" is an overreaction, especially since said problems have been fixed and the plane is in service without the issue popping up.

If those are teething issues, I'm scared to find out what you'd consider to be a serious problem.

Per TFA QA wasn't definitively being done not because they were too stupid to want it done but because of coordination issues with the suppliers because it was a new plane and they didn't have the process down yet. That is almost by definition teething issues. It takes some serious mental gymnastics to say with a straight face that coordination issues with suppliers when a product is first being made are not "teething issues." Sure, it points to systemic incompetency on some level but to say "I, for one, hope this plane never flies again." when the plane now has a proven track record of not being crap is an overreaction, to say the least.

Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#39

Post by matz1 »

simion314 wrote: post #35
privateSFacct wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. We have an drug problem that kills 40,000+/year from overdoses. Over a million people die driving in the world PER YEAR. A small bit of perspective. Plane flying used to be much MORE dangerous before the "corrupt" FAA got involved with the airplane companies to regulate things more closely. The 737 MAX has had no US passenger fatalities flying with US licensed pilots. The record of safety in aviation in the last…

Any reason you think that this crashes would not have ever happened in US? Before the first crash the pilots did not even known abut MCAS existence so I am not sure why you think that US pilots are extraordinary, I assume that not all MAX pilots are ex fighter pilots with super skills and whatever you imagine that makes ALL US pilots superior to the rest of the world.

So is it merely luck that this crashes doesn't happen in US ?

Re: Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

#40

Post by denton-scratch »

CydeWeys wrote: post #36
CivBase wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those are teething issues, I'm scared to find out what you'd consider to be a serious problem.

They're fixed now, is the point. It wouldn't make sense to pull 787s now because the problems are fixed and it would throw global air travel into chaos and disarray (since this plane is now so widely used).

Wot? Potentially-dangerous planes must be kept flying, because air-travel chaos and widely-used-ness?
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