Live data from Hacker News

GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

bloomberg.com

101–110 of 125 posts

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#101
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were that the case, we'd see a prevalence of people unable to afford cars. This is not the case. The cost of an automobile is an even smaller fraction of an average person's disposable income than it was during Henry Ford's day. And this isn't considering the fact that a modern car is far safer, more comfortable, more fuel efficient, and just broadly way better than a model T. American workers are too highly paid to…

> Were that the case, we'd see a prevalence of people unable to afford cars. Actually, I'd say that is precisely the case. The vast majority of cars in the US are bought on credit, which means people can't actually afford a car, they can only afford to borrow money to pay for a car for a few years, then get out of that one and move onto another one. The massive, massive majority of vehicles are not owned by the perso…

Here's some quick math.

The price of a model T in 1908 was $825 or $850 (google results vary). The median annual income was between $450 and $525 (again, sources vary). So a Model T cost 1.6 to 1.7 times the median income of a US worker. For a car that had no air conditioning, no radio, no airbags, and a top speed of 45 mph. Near the end of the production run (mid-late 20s) the cost of the model T had gone down by over half - thanks to production line manufacturing.

This site provides a breakdown for the cost as a fraction of median annual income of Chevys over the course of the 20th century: https://cars.lovetoknow.com/Car_Ownership_Statistics

By comparison, the current US median income is just over $60k. You can buy many of these cars for less than half of that. Some less than a third: https://www.truecar.com/prices-new/kia/ Each of these cars is drastically safer, more comfortable, and with amenities like aircon radios and more.

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#102
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were that the case, we'd see a prevalence of people unable to afford cars. This is not the case. The cost of an automobile is an even smaller fraction of an average person's disposable income than it was during Henry Ford's day. And this isn't considering the fact that a modern car is far safer, more comfortable, more fuel efficient, and just broadly way better than a model T. American workers are too highly paid to…

> The cost of an automobile is an even smaller fraction of an average person's disposable income than it was during Henry Ford's day. I seriously doubt that... at $50,000+ for a new pickup, and $35,000+ for a new car? And used vehicles are still quite expensive as well (unless you buy an absolute pile of junk). Financing terms keep stretching longer to keep the appearance of an affordable monthly payment, but many Am…

Used trucks are generally a pretty good buy. Demonizing 'used' isn't good advice.

On the other hand, it drives down the price of my vehicle purchases. So go right ahead!

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#103
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were that the case, we'd see a prevalence of people unable to afford cars. This is not the case. The cost of an automobile is an even smaller fraction of an average person's disposable income than it was during Henry Ford's day. And this isn't considering the fact that a modern car is far safer, more comfortable, more fuel efficient, and just broadly way better than a model T. American workers are too highly paid to…

> The cost of an automobile is an even smaller fraction of an average person's disposable income than it was during Henry Ford's day. I seriously doubt that... at $50,000+ for a new pickup, and $35,000+ for a new car? And used vehicles are still quite expensive as well (unless you buy an absolute pile of junk). Financing terms keep stretching longer to keep the appearance of an affordable monthly payment, but many Am…

The median income in the US today is just over $60k. You can buy a new car for under $20k: https://www.truecar.com/prices-new/kia/

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#104
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cost of an automobile is an even smaller fraction of an average person's disposable income than it was during Henry Ford's day. I seriously doubt that... at $50,000+ for a new pickup, and $35,000+ for a new car? And used vehicles are still quite expensive as well (unless you buy an absolute pile of junk). Financing terms keep stretching longer to keep the appearance of an affordable monthly payment, but many Am…

You can get a brand new car for under $20K (e.g. Honda Civic or Honda Fit) People buy $35K cars because they can. Look at sales of something like the SmartCar. They were very low despite the car being $12K-15K as people were willing to pay more.

I think the SmartCar didn't sell in the US because the mileage was shockingly bad. You'd expect 100mpg for something that small and light. It didn't seem 'smart' to American buyers at all.

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#105
post #97
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Henry Ford set minimum salaries, he wasn't impacting the wages of the engineers who designed the cars - he was impacting the wages of those who made less than $5 at the time the change was made. A minimum wage was being set, not an 'average' wage. So comparing a $5 minimum wage to the 'average wage today including white collar workers like line engineers' fails to be a convincing comparison. It's even less convi…

I think the 'more than one car per household' is a fair point but I think it gets watered down by the >1 car per driving adult...this may be just that we consume more, not need more. If that's the case, it implies vehicles are more accessible today, not less. But I stand by the assertion that claiming a $40k average wage is way off. The base salary of most Tier 1 non-skilled employees was still in the $70k-$80k range…

Introduction of the $5 daily wage also included a reduction in labor hours to 8 hours per day. So no, the $5 wage did not include overtime.

"To run the factory continuously instead of only eighteen hours a day, giving employment to several thousand more men by employing three shifts of eight hours each, instead of only two nine-hour shifts, as at present." https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general...

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get a brand new car for under $20K (e.g. Honda Civic or Honda Fit) People buy $35K cars because they can. Look at sales of something like the SmartCar. They were very low despite the car being $12K-15K as people were willing to pay more.

I think the SmartCar didn't sell in the US because the mileage was shockingly bad. You'd expect 100mpg for something that small and light. It didn't seem 'smart' to American buyers at all.

33 city, 41 hwy ?

Yeah it’s not amazing but people are buying trucks and SUVs with much worse MPG for more $$$.

People want the additional capabilities, safety, or even just the status symbol of having a nice truck or expensive car.

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the SmartCar didn't sell in the US because the mileage was shockingly bad. You'd expect 100mpg for something that small and light. It didn't seem 'smart' to American buyers at all.

33 city, 41 hwy ? Yeah it’s not amazing but people are buying trucks and SUVs with much worse MPG for more $$$. People want the additional capabilities, safety, or even just the status symbol of having a nice truck or expensive car.

Yeah they improved it (double?) because it wasn't selling as it was?

Few were going to sacrifice comfort, room, performance for a tiny car with bad mileage. Just because its manufacture was 'eco-friendly'

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#108
post #4

I’m mostly positive about Andrew Yang but it’s frustrating to know he would point to something like this and scream “automation” when GM’s downsizing has more to do with outsourcing and a slowing market than anything remotely related to robots taking over jobs.

What's the difference between automation and outsourcing when what you care about is American's losing jobs and not having a backup?

They are subtle but there. Automation means the productivity is local - albeit concentrated in the automatees and implies an upwards trajectory to quality - giving a competitive edge. The industry is still there and likely growing stronger and more concentrated in skill.

Outsourcing implies going to the lowest bidder and less investment locally with fewer peripheral jobs. It is also "brute force" and commoditization. Inevitably the destination nation will develop competition which may be able to compete with the abroad nation who will have little special on them. It risks the loss of the industry even as an outsourcer.

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#109
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the 'more than one car per household' is a fair point but I think it gets watered down by the >1 car per driving adult...this may be just that we consume more, not need more. If that's the case, it implies vehicles are more accessible today, not less. But I stand by the assertion that claiming a $40k average wage is way off. The base salary of most Tier 1 non-skilled employees was still in the $70k-$80k range…

Introduction of the $5 daily wage also included a reduction in labor hours to 8 hours per day. So no, the $5 wage did not include overtime. "To run the factory continuously instead of only eighteen hours a day, giving employment to several thousand more men by employing three shifts of eight hours each, instead of only two nine-hour shifts, as at present." https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general.…

Fair enough on the hours. But it's not wholly accurate to count the $5/day as a wage. About half of it was a 'bonus' if you met the "socialization" criteria like abstaining from drinking. They would literally perform home inspections. Men would have to give up the bonus if their wives worked. I think people look at this with some revisionist history; it wasn't as altruistic and I (personally) don't think it's an improvement over today.

Not to belabor the point, but it's not a simple one-to-one comparison like the OP was trying to demonstrate. I don't think the wages are nearly as bad as they made it out to be.

Re: GM Is Now Detroit’s Smallest Auto-Making Employer

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well first a Tacoma is actually a truck; even Honda states the ridgeline is not intended to compete with traditional trucks, is not built for towing and uses a unibody construction. Tacomas are expensive, the dealers don't deal and they hold their resale value. The new (2019) Tacoma trades heavily on it's reputation IMO, without really adding much new over the past 3-4 years. It's a real off-road vehicle though, if t…

I like that Toyota hasn’t touched Tacoma/4Runner. It’s already perfect as is, no additional bells and whistles were needed other than CarPlay.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN