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NPM Bans Terminal Ads

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101–110 of 377 posts

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#101
I know this is a controversial opinion and I know it won’t directly solve the issue at hand, but it’s related and it addresses some of the concerns raised by many people in this thread: how do we get open source the funding it needs?

Consider a world where the norm is not MIT/BSD but GPL dual licensed with MIT for a fee. This would give back control to maintainers of a library, and it would allow people without funds to use the software freely by contributing back to the community any changes they wish to further publish.

It puts the incentives in the right place, which is very important for a scalable, sustainable solution and to avoid tragedy of the commons!

It’s controversial because licensing has become a tribal issue, frustrating level headed debate. But I would argue that many people choose MIT without really thinking it through, “because it’s how everyone else does it”. You can see this in complaints from maintainers of code released under MIT, abuse which would never have been possible with the GPL.

I really think there is value in evaluating the community’s obsession with MIT, before we jump to pointing fingers at “companies”. Remember: if you get burned by the tragedy of the commons, ask yourself why did we set ourselves up to fail? It’s the hardest possible fight to win.

Again I’m not trying to derail this into MIT v GPL, I’m just saying: IF we all choose MIT, can we really complain now? This is what happens: people profit off your work and don’t contribute. If you feel so frustrated by that that you’re adding ads to your lib, maybe MIT wasn’t the right choice?

(MIT has merit and there are people out there using it for the right reasons. But they’re not the ones putting ads in their repos.)

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#102
post #85

Most of us use vim. That’s ad supported and I think most us can agree it’s not awful. It’s certainly possible to do ads well (maybe even more common in terminal software.) I personally don’t have any experience with ads in NPM though.

Vim isn't ad-supported. Vim has one messsage that you might consider an ad, and the money doesn't support vim's development, it goes to charity. I think it also used to be possible to donate to vim directly to support the development, but I think that money goes to charity now too.

(I personally don't think "help poor children in Uganda by donating" is an ad).

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#103
A few thoughts:

(1) Most open source projects do not provide the outsized value impact that their creators seem to think they do. Most projects exist around the realm of "its 20% easier to install this than build it ourselves, so lets grab the dependency". That's nice, but lets be clear here: Standard.JS is not building Rails, or NodeJS, or Express, or React, or another seriously valuable project that saves companies thousands of dollars.

(2) Open source maintainers are deathly afraid of restrictive licensing. That could mean GPL, or it could mean a straight-up enterprise "pay for a key" licensing. I think these are fantastic ways to level the field between individual OSS devs and billion dollar companies, because most billion dollar companies take licensing very seriously. Where does this fear come from? I think a big part is that these OSS devs "want their cake and to eat it"; they want the ego and community of an altruist, but the income of a Capitalist. Another component is point (1); if you really tried to place a number on the value of their project, they'd be disappointed with the number customers would quote. They don't want to find out what that number is; they'd rather just ask for donations (of which they get very little, because, again, this software by-and-large does not provide outsized value).

(3) Its crazy to me that companies would pay for advertising space in an npm install script. I'd bet developers behind projects like StandardJS went to these companies and said "look we get millions of installs every month, that's millions of impressions", and I hope the companies are smart enough to know that (A) the vast majority of those installs are in unmonitored CI scripts, and (B) even if they are local, the text flies by so quick, and (C) even if they aren't quick, no one watches that progress anyway. Even if there's no deception today, one can easily see that monitoring "impressions" here is very difficult, and thus its very difficult to place a quantitative value on that ad space.

(4) The inability to sustain yourself on open-source development is about equivalent to "I can't sustain myself on volunteering time at a food kitchen for the homeless." If you're actually having funding problems to live your life, its time to reassess. Again, this sounds like some of these projects have some egotists behind them, or maybe they just feel like they can't leave (hint: you can. you're human. your priority is you. not the billion dollar companies who use your software without paying). Find help. Take a break. See if your full-time company can "sponsor" development by letting you work on it 5% of the time.

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#104
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have got open source funding all wrong. The thing that makes open source great is that, in parallel, half a million projects are ticking along from which we are learning what is good, what is bad, what is the future of our art. It is education. It is research. We look for 100,000 individual solutions to making rent while FAANG are just sitting there with a quarter trillion plus in cash waiting to benefit f…

Google+Microsoft+Facebook contribute quite a lot to open source though. React, Angular, TypeScript, Kubernetes, TensorFlow, etc etc....

To write React Facebook needed 20 years of R&D done by open source... jquery, mootools, long list of dead stuff today we needed to learn from. If Facebook needs 1000 projects to show them how to produce the best React then they need to keep 1000 projects in the pipelines so they can build the best successor to current solutions too. That's why they need to fund open source.

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#105
post #61

I haven't really run into any. Has anyone run into some unexpectedly?

Yup, just this week I noticed the npm package `core-js` used by the Babel transpiler was polluting my build logs. It listed opencollective and patreon as possible channels of support. That I didn't mind so much, but then there was a message (repeated countless times in the logs) that the author was looking for a job. That's just spam in my terminal, unacceptable. Background and heated discussion in the following GitH…

Interesting, thank you.

I'm not heavy on the "hell i'll just import anything" kinda thing so I often feel immune to some of the random "omg this package" panic.

But... Babel... that's some serious stuff once it hits there.

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#106
post #11

While I don't particularly like the idea of stuffing ads into npm logs, I don't have the same visceral negative reaction that many people have in these HN threads on this topic. The overwhelming majority of the people complaining about this are well-paid tech workers writing code for well-funded companies that profit off of open source code without providing any reciprocal value to the open source projects in return.…

I release a ton of my work with open source licensing and I've never thought of it as a revenue stream.

If people are financially burdened by making their project open-source; then don't make it open source. Donating something to the community and then getting offended when nobody reciprocates is disingenuous. It's part of the problem with "freemium" software these days where developers think I should be indebted to them for eternity because they did something with no ROI in sight. That's not my problem! There were 100,000,000 developers before you who had to write the ISA, the compiler/interpreter, the OS, the firmware in every device... If I gave each one a nickle I'd be in worse shape than you are.

Sure, it's possible to turn a profit making open-source software. If that's a goal you have then buckle up because it's not a smooth ride. I liken it to being a starving artist. It's not for everyone, so if you already bitch about being hungry all the time maybe you should just look into a day job instead.

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#107
post #8

The rationale from the author of the package who adding advertising is enlightening and definitely worth reading. https://feross.org/funding-experiment-recap/

This is highly unrelated, sorry, but does anyone know the zsh theme used in that post (https://feross.org/images/funding-screenshot.png)? I didn't see anything like it in the list of zsh themes (https://zshthem.es/all/). The colored arrows look very appealing if they're contextual, like if they denote the status of git files (deleted/edited/added).

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#108
post #11

While I don't particularly like the idea of stuffing ads into npm logs, I don't have the same visceral negative reaction that many people have in these HN threads on this topic. The overwhelming majority of the people complaining about this are well-paid tech workers writing code for well-funded companies that profit off of open source code without providing any reciprocal value to the open source projects in return.…

>You have people working mostly for free

I think citation is needed here. Many big open source projects are created and maintained by the paid employees of big corporations.

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#109
post #11

While I don't particularly like the idea of stuffing ads into npm logs, I don't have the same visceral negative reaction that many people have in these HN threads on this topic. The overwhelming majority of the people complaining about this are well-paid tech workers writing code for well-funded companies that profit off of open source code without providing any reciprocal value to the open source projects in return.…

I work on Enterprise projects and we rarely (never) contribute back financially, because we cannot for practical reasons. It is simply not possible for us to add a "donation" cost to our projects. That will not get past accounting. A license, on the other hand, we would have no issues purchasing that. We purchase (expensive) licenses to proprietary software all the time. We could and would do the same for the open so…

What about a completely pointless "support the project" license? So you basically chip in for the maintenance, but don't get any additional rights?

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#110
post #19
post #11

While I don't particularly like the idea of stuffing ads into npm logs, I don't have the same visceral negative reaction that many people have in these HN threads on this topic. The overwhelming majority of the people complaining about this are well-paid tech workers writing code for well-funded companies that profit off of open source code without providing any reciprocal value to the open source projects in return.…

I get where you're coming from. But doing an annoying thing is always going to bring negative attention, and doing a novel annoying thing is going to get a lot of attention. That attempting to make money by spamming diagnostic mechanisms was going to annoy people was inevitable. > But instead of attacking the guy for trying, I really wish the discussion were I wish they guy had spent energy on "how the community... c…

Out of curiousity, does the organization you work for contribute money to the Open source libraries it uses via existing mechanisms (e.g. gratipay, Github sponsors)?
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