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How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

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Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#31

Post by dao- »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #5

> The method we developed images the eye multiple times to see whether it’s actually responding to changes in brightness Hopefully the person does not have Argyll Robertson pupils https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyll_Robertson_pupil which is seen in late stage syphilis and causes the pupil not to react to the light. Also, another thing is that they should make sure that they train their system with dark eyed people.…

> Also, another thing is that they should make sure that they train their system with dark eyed people. Often the iris is very easy to identify if people with light colored eyes. In people with dark eyes, it may be more difficult.

Surely this is a concern (and presumably a solved problem) for any iris scanner, regardless of whether it tries to detect if the eye responds to stimuli.

Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#32

Post by imagin8or »

Biometrics is fun.

Industry: Multimillion dollar iris scanning development

Hackers: Eye photo

Gangsters: Found his eyeball

Industry: Infrared feature detection

Hackers: Took off the camera's IR filter, eye photo works again

Gangsters: Eyeball

Industry: Surface shape detection

Hackers: Eye photo with a contact lens

Gangsters: Eyeball still works

Industry: Multi image cadaver detection

Hackers: Eye video with a contact lens

Gangsters: Eyeball and a cattle prod

[Govt dept: We've had our eye on you for some time now, Mr Anderson...]

Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#33

Post by coldtea »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #29
coldtea wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, you could replicate anything given enough budget You just killed a person and extracted their eyes to use to open some door. I think you have the budget for something that you can make for $200 with Lego Technic...

If you're bad enough to kill a person with the desired eyeball, you might as well unlock the door with them before you kill, with a few threats and promises. (pretty ugly thought)

>with a few threats and promises

There have been people tortured to death who never gave up important secrets, so that might not be an option...

Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#34

Post by tfigment »

dao- wrote: post #31
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #5

> The method we developed images the eye multiple times to see whether it’s actually responding to changes in brightness Hopefully the person does not have Argyll Robertson pupils https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyll_Robertson_pupil which is seen in late stage syphilis and causes the pupil not to react to the light. Also, another thing is that they should make sure that they train their system with dark eyed people.…

> Also, another thing is that they should make sure that they train their system with dark eyed people. Often the iris is very easy to identify if people with light colored eyes. In people with dark eyes, it may be more difficult. Surely this is a concern (and presumably a solved problem) for any iris scanner, regardless of whether it tries to detect if the eye responds to stimuli.

You would think but its a valid concern. Facial recognition systems tend to fail more often with dark skinned people and I would argue that should have been considered the same way.

Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#35

Post by theshrike79 »

tfigment wrote: post #34
dao- wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, another thing is that they should make sure that they train their system with dark eyed people. Often the iris is very easy to identify if people with light colored eyes. In people with dark eyes, it may be more difficult. Surely this is a concern (and presumably a solved problem) for any iris scanner, regardless of whether it tries to detect if the eye responds to stimuli.

You would think but its a valid concern. Facial recognition systems tend to fail more often with dark skinned people and I would argue that should have been considered the same way.

Camera-based facial recognition.

The Apple-style IR Mesh doesn't care what your skin color is, everyone is grayscale as far as it is concerned :D

Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#36

Post by Zenst »

probablybroken wrote: post #27
ebg13 wrote: post #2

> The method we developed images the eye multiple times to see whether it’s actually responding to changes in brightness This is new? In 2019? Really? I find that so hard to believe. > the process takes about 3 seconds WHAAAAT? WHY? > For comparison, even iris-recognition systems that require just one snapshot usually take about that much time to make an identification. I feel like Robin Williams fresh out of Jumanji…

A possibility would be that you might want to make multiple changes in light level at random intervals to make it harder for e.g, a video being presented to the camera that matches the input it would expect.

That would make sense, certainly what I would call a further stage of development and currently they are doing viability and a basic level of operation. So that would seem like a logical progression.

Coz they could add a brainwave scanner that measures the reaction to the input of the eye, or have a higher resolution camera that measures blood flow being active in the eye. Many avenues of addressing this. But as a previous comment mentioned - generally easier to have a physical person next to the iris. After all, not like there is a shortage of humans to do jobs in the World today.

Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#37

Post by moftz »

probablybroken wrote: post #27
ebg13 wrote: post #2

> The method we developed images the eye multiple times to see whether it’s actually responding to changes in brightness This is new? In 2019? Really? I find that so hard to believe. > the process takes about 3 seconds WHAAAAT? WHY? > For comparison, even iris-recognition systems that require just one snapshot usually take about that much time to make an identification. I feel like Robin Williams fresh out of Jumanji…

A possibility would be that you might want to make multiple changes in light level at random intervals to make it harder for e.g, a video being presented to the camera that matches the input it would expect.

The LG iris scanner that I've used in the past had a small flickering red LED between your eyes. I'm not sure if it was just something to focus on or if the light was meant to make your pupils dilate slightly. The one I used was probably nearly 10 years old. The newer scanner out there look to be a lot faster and more automatic.

Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#38

Post by tyingq »

ebg13 wrote: post #2

> The method we developed images the eye multiple times to see whether it’s actually responding to changes in brightness This is new? In 2019? Really? I find that so hard to believe. > the process takes about 3 seconds WHAAAAT? WHY? > For comparison, even iris-recognition systems that require just one snapshot usually take about that much time to make an identification. I feel like Robin Williams fresh out of Jumanji…

Apparently pupils don't adjust terribly quickly:

"Briefly, it was found that when light is flashed on a normal eye that is accommodated for the dark, there occurs a latent period of 0.1875 second before the pupil begins to contract. Then there follows a rapid primary contraction for 0.4365 second at the rate of 5.48 mm. per second. This is succeeded by a secondary contraction of 0.3125 second at the slower rate of 1.34 mm. per second"

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/286369

Doesn't explain 3 seconds, but perhaps 1 second or so.

Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#39

Post by SkyBelow »

dahartigan wrote: post #7

Wouldn't it be trivial to detect a pulse with IR similar to how it's done with other devices?

If I remember correctly (which may be wrong as it has been quite a few years), veins in an eye are better than iris for many issues related to using eyes for identification, but they can also reveal health information and so there are more issues with storing and sharing the data needed to verify a person.

Now, one may point out that if both pieces of information were being kept entirely private and were being secured with industry standard security this different wouldn't matter. I'll leave the implications of this for the reader to ponder upon.

Re: How to Teach an Iris Scanner That the Eye It’s Looking at Is Dead

#40

Post by mLuby »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #28
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #5

> The method we developed images the eye multiple times to see whether it’s actually responding to changes in brightness Hopefully the person does not have Argyll Robertson pupils https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyll_Robertson_pupil which is seen in late stage syphilis and causes the pupil not to react to the light. Also, another thing is that they should make sure that they train their system with dark eyed people.…

Surely at that point it's correctly detecting they're "mostly dead"?

Only the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed may enter the meeting room.
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