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Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

nytimes.com

61–70 of 112 posts

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#61
post #2

The bottom line of the article is that we should use better and more understandable metrics about a hurricanes path, like https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at5+shtml/174008.s... , which was referenced in the article

Now go to the NYT main hurricane article and what do you see? The same misleading map that this article says people don't understand instead of the better wind speed probability alternative: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/29/us/hurricane-dorian-flori...

This one? https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/27/us/hurricane-...

This is not the same cone map, the shaded area represents "50 percent or higher chance of experiencing wind speeds of at least 39 miles per hour" - ie. a simplified version of the map you recommend.

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#62
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of scientific literacy would make this obvious? They need a better presentation.

confidence intervals...

So a scientifically literate person who understands confidence intervals looks at that plot. How do they tell how likely they are to get hit? Keep in mind that the size of the hurricane isn’t shown at all.

You have to real about halfway through the fine print to learn:

Historical data indicate that the entire 5-day path of the center of the tropical cyclone will remain within the cone about 60-70% of the time.

It does not say the distribution is Gaussian, and I suspect it’s actually much longer-railed than a Gaussian would be.

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#63
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is very concerning. Here's an article written at the time: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/national/hurric... "Forecasting models predicted the storm’s path with relative accuracy."

Forecasts are getting better and better, but they still have large uncertainty. The piece explains the cone as the NHC itself explains it. Scroll down here: https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at5+shtml/204603.s...

These are the most relevant paragraphs:

NHC tropical cyclone forecast tracks can be in error. This forecast uncertainty is conveyed by the track forecast "cone", the solid white and stippled white areas in the graphic. The solid white area depicts the track forecast uncertainty for days 1-3 of the forecast, while the stippled area depicts the uncertainty on days 4-5. Historical data indicate that the entire 5-day path of the center of the tropical cyclone will remain within the cone about 60-70% of the time. To form the cone, a set of imaginary circles are placed along the forecast track at the 12, 24, 36, 48, 72, 96, and 120 h positions, where the size of each circle is set so that it encloses 67% of the previous five years official forecast errors. The cone is then formed by smoothly connecting the area swept out by the set of circles.

It is also important to realize that a tropical cyclone is not a point. Their effects can span many hundreds of miles from the center. The area experiencing hurricane force (one-minute average wind speeds of at least 74 mph) and tropical storm force (one-minute average wind speeds of 39-73 mph) winds can extend well beyond the white areas shown enclosing the most likely track area of the center. The distribution of hurricane and tropical storm force winds in this tropical cyclone can be seen in the Wind History graphic linked above.

Considering the combined forecast uncertainties in track, intensity, and size, the chances that any particular location will experience winds of 34 kt (tropical storm force), 50 kt, or 64 kt (hurricane force) from this tropical cyclone are presented in tabular form for selected locations and forecast positions. This information is also presented in graphical form for the 34 kt, 50 kt, and 64 kt thresholds.

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#64
post #39
post #10

"The National Hurricane Center says cones will contain the path of the storm center only 60 to 70 percent of the time" Sounds like the communications fix is easy. Increase the uncertainty to 90-95% which also increases the cone size. And make it blood red and tell anyone inside the red that they need to be prepared. "Hurricanes are also hundreds of miles wide, and the cone shows only the possible path of the storm’s…

I've been living with hurricanes my entire life, and have been through many (the largest was Hugo in '89). The problem with all these cones is when they extend them beyond 72 hours. At that point, if we used your suggestion, the entire east coast could be in the cone. That means either no one pays attention, or everyone evacuates and next time ignores the warnings. What officials (and the news) need to do is tell eve…

I feel like the news and government response has been to very strongly err on the side of caution lately. The moment the path was updated to move to a direct hit of north Florida yesterday, grocery stores and gas stations were flooded with people preparing a week in advance. 10 or 15 years ago you'd hear a lot of "well a storm hasn't hit here in 100 years" in the region, but nobody fucks around like that anymore.

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#65

Looks like the scientific illiteracy sponsored by this country's education system is really starting to pay off!

It's not a scientific literacy problem. The charts are pretty objectively encoding data using the wrong format.

To explain it better, consider a line chart versus a bar chart. Quantitatively, they display exactly the same data, to the same precision and the same fidelity and visual distortion. However, the two charts do not share the same interpretation. A bar chart places the visual emphasis on the magnitude of each individual data point, and is meant to let you easily compare the value of a data point to any other data point. Meanwhile, a line chart places the visual emphasis on the relative values of successive data point, and is meant to let you estimate rates of change and analyze both where data points not-yet-measured might end up and if rate of change is accelerating or decelerating.

The data that these charts are trying to convey is fundamentally a collection of lines--the possible paths that the eye of the hurricane may take. However, the means of its conveyance is by use of enclosed polygons on the map. These enclosed polygons convey a visual emphasis that all of the contained points share a feature in common. When discussing hurricanes, and given the context of the map, it is very easy to misinterpret that feature to be "this point will see damaging hurricane effects" instead of "this point is between the extremities of the most likely paths of the eye of the hurricane." Note too, how the labels I give are cumbersome: terse descriptions may again mean a label meant to evoke the latter turns out to evoke the former. A more visually accurate representation of the data would be to represent the cone of uncertainty with a collection of lines indicating the mean path and the edges. Perhaps you could add more tracks for more intermediate points to illustrate if the uncertainty is a smooth distribution or if there are weirder clusters (kind of like a spatial violin plot). You could also use varying lightness on the lines to indicate which are the center and which are the edges.

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#66
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general problem that the article raises is still valid even though the pictures don’t match. The article is pointing out that the increasing circle sizes represent variation of centerline paths, not the actual size of the hurricane (which is a common misconception). Just because the plots don’t match doesn’t make the article irrelevant.

I get your point, but there is another angle here. People have a strong tendency not to trust forecasters, despite relative accuracy. This article implies a lack of accuracy that wasn't actually the case. It would be incredibly easy to come away from this article with the wrong lessons.

> People have a strong tendency not to trust forecasters

It's possible a lot of this bias is just outdated, up until very recently most hurricane (cyclone in my case) warnings came with a disclaimer like "cyclones or notoriously unpredictable and can make sudden, unexpected course changes" and for the most part this was true even in the short term. I don't think I've seen a wildly incorrect forecast in my area in 20 years but my mother still believes in this inherent unpredictability.

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#67
post #10

"The National Hurricane Center says cones will contain the path of the storm center only 60 to 70 percent of the time" Sounds like the communications fix is easy. Increase the uncertainty to 90-95% which also increases the cone size. And make it blood red and tell anyone inside the red that they need to be prepared. "Hurricanes are also hundreds of miles wide, and the cone shows only the possible path of the storm’s…

To be fair, on all those forecast cone graphs, it says in bold font:

"The cone contains the probably path of the storm center but does not show the size of the storm. Hazardous conditions can occur outside of the code."

But I agree, the wind speed probability plot is much more useful. Like https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at5+shtml/204603.s...

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#68
post #9

"Graphics like these need to be read closely and carefully. Only then can we grasp what they're really saying." A cone showing the likely paths of the storm's eye seems like the incorrect graphic to communicate to the public. The public cares about how much rain and wind they are going to get. The take-away to me is that maybe we should just emphasize maps of expected cumulative rainfall and wind speed, and not prese…

Yes, there are wind speed probability plots that show the currently forecasted probability of getting tropical-storm, hurricane and greater-than-hurricane (don't remember) plots that are more useful for judging risk.

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#69
post #66
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, but there is another angle here. People have a strong tendency not to trust forecasters, despite relative accuracy. This article implies a lack of accuracy that wasn't actually the case. It would be incredibly easy to come away from this article with the wrong lessons.

> People have a strong tendency not to trust forecasters It's possible a lot of this bias is just outdated, up until very recently most hurricane (cyclone in my case) warnings came with a disclaimer like "cyclones or notoriously unpredictable and can make sudden, unexpected course changes" and for the most part this was true even in the short term. I don't think I've seen a wildly incorrect forecast in my area in 20…

The challenge is that, eventually, the forecast of one storm will be wildly off. This is inevitable. But that doesn't mean that the forecast was necessarily incorrect. I think that this is what it's crucial to explain to the public: the general meaning of uncertainty. We need to learn to deal with it.

Re: Misinterpreting hurricane forecasts

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you see the article implying the forecast was inaccurate? To me the author is only saying that how people interpret it is inaccurate which is the entire point of the article.

Yes, exactly. The cone is as accurate as it can be, by which I mean: accurate but with a huge degree of uncertainty. The challenge is that some readers tend to read it as deterministic, and get it wrong by: 1. Thinking "If I'm inside of the cone I'm in danger, if I'm outside I'm good" (wrong! 1/3 of the time the storm will be outside of the cone!) 2. If I'm inside of the cone AND under its center line/dots of I'll wo…

And your article drives this point home really well. I honestly don't understand the criticism - the hurricane example you picked from 2017 is just to make a point - which people in this thread are unnecessarily complaining about.
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