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Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

blogs.perl.org

11–20 of 424 posts

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#11

I'm not surprised that the language is dying. They seem to be spending time on things no one cares about and things that are inconsequential.

This is by far the most important thing they could be doing right now. It should have been done 10-15 years ago, and is arguably the dominant remaining reason for why the work done on both Perls since Perl 6 has failed to payoff the way it should have.

There is a certain contingent of developers who should have been all over Perl 6 and very excited about it. We should have been seeing the stream of "$COMMON_LIBRARY but in Perl 6!" postings on HN for a couple of years, along with the blog posts of "look how crap this is to write in $OTHER_LANGUAGE but with this bit here and there look at how slick the Perl 6 solution is!" every couple of weeks. We should be seeing blog posts about the joys of working in a language with built-in grammar support replacing the old ad-hoc regex support, and how well it integrates with the rest of the features. We should have even eventually seen the contrarian backlash posts about how much of a mess you can make if you overload all your operators and grammar constructs and use all the features at once in an ill-advised manner, followed by comment thread semi-flamewars about whether bad code is the fault of the programmer or the language.

But we didn't.

Bias disclosure: I actually have no interest in Perl 6, so this isn't advocacy. Anything I've ever seen that Perl 6 looks interesting to me (emphasis) for, I'd rather just use Haskell, which I've already learned and actually does quite a lot of what Perl 6 does. But Perl 6 does it without being a immutable functional programming language, making this all a lot more accessible to a lot of programmers. I'm not saying I'm interested in Perl 6; I'm saying, there is definitely a chunk of programmers who should have been interested in it who are not.

And from what I can see, this naming confusion is one of the major reasons.

(One other one I would point to is the Perl 6 community's multi-year "joke" that Perl 6 would be released "next Christmas", which nobody outside of the Perl 6 community found even slightly funny, instead creating a reputation for the community that overpromises and underdelivers; that a few people would swoop in to those conversations to actually mock people who weren't insiders enough to know it was a joke and not a real promise, which is to say, 99.9999999% of humanity (that is not random nines; that is all but ~700 people; take one off if you like), really didn't help. I put "remaining reason" in my first paragraph because this has been resolved for many years now. But I can tell you that this significantly diminished my own personal interest, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Finally, I'd point to it just never being done, but, arguably, that alone couldn't have killed it. There's plenty of languages that grow quite substantially over time; the Python of when Python first really got popular and the Python of today are very different, for instance. Had more people been interested and pushing for something usable $TODAY, with more work being done later, this probably wouldn't have been as big a deal.)

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#12
I don't get all this "Perl 6 is a different language" nonsense. It was created by Larry Wall and retains all the characteristics of Perl 5 whilst adding a lot of great stuff from other languages. Sadly, performance prevents it being taken seriously in production.

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#13
This makes a lot of sense. Renaming Perl 6 means:

* Perl 5 can continue being "perl" and have a future. People with existing perl codebases won't think they're going to need to upgrade.

* Camilia/Raku/etc can be considered on its own merits.

The C/C++ analogy is a good one: when things are different enough you stop expecting everyone to "upgrade" and instead are making a different language.

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#14
post #10

I think an interesting question is, if the developers of Perl 6 knew from the beginning that they are essentially designing a new language with a new identity, would their new language be different and to what extent?

Developers now want to grab old folks by using old name and new ones by using new name. Politically they can do that because there is a Perl 5 faction existing because of the big differences between 5 and 6.

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#15
post #7

I'm not surprised that the language is dying. They seem to be spending time on things no one cares about and things that are inconsequential.

Could it be that the Perl language (and especially Perl 5) but as a community in general, is established and mature, and very stable, that the only things that are mentioned are just not the things that newer, fast moving languages such as Rust and Go talk about? I don't think that the naming situation is trivial, I really think it has had a negative effect on both Perl 5 and Perl 6.

>Could it be that the Perl language (and especially Perl 5) but as a community in general, is established and mature, and very stable

No, it's also declining. If not for anything else, because most younger devs won't touch it (either 5 or 6).

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#17
post #12

I don't get all this "Perl 6 is a different language" nonsense. It was created by Larry Wall and retains all the characteristics of Perl 5 whilst adding a lot of great stuff from other languages. Sadly, performance prevents it being taken seriously in production.

FWIW, C++ is a different language from C, and C code is more C++ compatible than Perl 5 is for Perl 6.

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#19
post #9

> s/Perl/$other_language/g I’m somehow not sure Perl6 has anything to do with that. > because they're tired of waiting for Perl 6 But…for what exactly? It’s already stable enough for use.

Reasonable performance
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